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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 14:14

SW condition "life threatening" a/c to Kate Burley on Twitter. This is absolutely horrific. Neil Hamilton is a twat - he grinned apparently as he gave his assessment of the SW 'altercation'.

Faisal Islam has posted interesting study on Remain/Leave allegiances, basically "average person identified more closely as a remainer or leaver than they did as a supporter of any political party" and remain strength of identity rose dramatically post-ref, whereas leave reduced.

www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/new-eu-referendum-british-election-study-data/

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 14:18

And night, you miss the important point, the tory party have aligned themselves accordingly.

That's what May's speech was ALL about - identity. Them and us. All along leave / remain lines despite what she says.

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LotisBlue · 06/10/2016 14:19

Just place marking. Thank you for the very informative thread and sorry I don't have much to offer.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 14:20

Woolfe apparently conscious and recovering.

Nigel Farage has told the Telegraph: "Things are mildly better."

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RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 14:22

we have a police chase:

Guido Fawkes ‏@GuidoFawkes 5m
Brussels journalists now reporting Mike Hookem is "in a car chase with French police"

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Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 14:23

Odd though innit - why wouldn't you attempt to court the strongly held Remain views, rather than the more transient sentiment to leave?

Particularly if you are (as I used to think TM was) relatively sensible and realise the leave desires are unattainable in concert and likely to come at punishing economic and social cost.

Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 14:26

a police chase

I think I have now had enough UK politics for today, and potentially all days.

Christ on a bike with the gendarmerie in hot pursuit

tiggytape · 06/10/2016 14:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GloriaGaynor · 06/10/2016 14:31

What has happened to this country in a few short months?

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 14:32

Why? Because 70% of your own party voted to leave. Its just the Tory MPs that are out of step with that.

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Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 14:45

It still makes my brain ache though - why not lead people to a better way of thinking? Why alienate those who might vote tory (like me) but really, really don't want a full brexit? Why piss off uk business?

Anyway, I shall ponder, but meanwhile:

Lewis North
‏@Lewis_North90
Delayed at Strasbourg station. French police searching train for a UKIP MEP who allegedly hospitalised Steven Woolfe. Crazy.

tiggytape · 06/10/2016 14:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheNorthRemembers · 06/10/2016 14:48

Hope Woolfe recovers quickly. On a different note, what is wrong with kipper MEPs?! Diane James had a lucky escape with resigning. Based on this mornings Aaron Banks article, they are a proper vipers' nest.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 14:53

Why? Power.

That simple.

The best interests of the country have been dispensed with in pursuit of power and there is an opportunity to grab more. This means all bets are off and all rules we are used to are suspended.

Remember what this party did for their own leadership battle. What do you think they will do in a collective bid for more power?

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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GloriaGaynor · 06/10/2016 15:02

I was thinking of the death of one MP, an MEP in hospital, and another apparently on the run.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 15:05

And a rival leadership candidate takes the opportunity to get his pitch for the job

Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv 2m
Fellow @UKIP leadership candidate @RaheemKassam says of @Steven_Woolfe incident: 'Violence like this is abhorrent & does not reflect UKIP'

You think two of your MEPs brawling does not reflect your party?!!

Okkkkaaay then.

www.economist.com/news/britain/21708223-britains-new-prime-minister-signals-new-illiberal-direction-country?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/maysrevolutionaryconservatism
New illiberal Britain.

It remains to be seen precisely what will come of all this. The almost comically small-bore policies announced so far—including cadet forces in two-dozen state schools and a review into labour conditions—hardly correspond to the daring rhetoric.

Are we about to expand our military forces? As I only half joked - when is national service being reinstated?

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GloriaGaynor · 06/10/2016 15:07

Dissatisfaction with EU membership is simply a sipher for all socio-economic woes whipped up by right wing politicians and media who can always rely on the inherent xenophobia of middle England and harness it for their own ends.

People think they're disatisfied with the EU, but the real problem is domestic UK policy going back 30 years.

The reason UKIP support doesn't translate into MPs is not simply our voting system, but also the problem that a large number are imbeciles.

And if you think that's what Theresa May would describe as 'sneering' you'd be right.

GloriaGaynor · 06/10/2016 15:10

Siphon that should say.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 15:24

We have switched political axis.

Instead of being right v left we are now liberal v authoritarian.

www.politicalcompass.org
Is good source of explaining it.

It has a graph of the EU refer and people's positions.
www.politicalcompass.org/uk_eu_referendum2016
Note the Corbyn position - isolated and miles from everything else. This is why he is probably going to struggle at a general election.

There is also a graph of the 2015 Election
www.politicalcompass.org/uk2015
This includes SNP, Plaid and various other NI party positions.

There is a test too if you want to see where you are. I have a feeling I know how it will pan out.

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merrymouse · 06/10/2016 15:50

itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/guardian-uk-politics-weekly/id136697472?mt=2

Have just been listening to Guardian politics podcast.

Among other questionable things, Theresa Villiers says that the EU wouldn't interfere with city passporting rights because "London is the major financial centre serving the whole of Europe" and EU businesses need to raise money in London. Confused

Isn't the general consensus that if London doesn't have passporting rights, other EU cities will be more than happy to step in?

(Warning, podcast contains Daniel Hannan reciting poetry),

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 16:05

Among other questionable things, Theresa Villiers says that the EU wouldn't interfere with city passporting rights because "London is the major financial centre serving the whole of Europe" and EU businesses need to raise money in London.

One of the things in the idea of a transitional exit is the city could not move in 2 years even if it wanted to so the EU will have no option but to offer such a deal. This then raises the question of how long 'transitional' will last.

I think if you think about it like this, then Villiers perhaps has a point, at least in the short term. In the long term, yes the city would probably seek to relocate.

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Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 16:58

Erm, it looks like JC is having a Labour reshuffle, just for funsies.

Jessica ElgotVerified account
‏^@jessicaelgot^
Told more Labour reshuffle news coming tonight - "expect some eye openers"

Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 17:02

Paul WaughVerified account
‏@paulwaugh
Rumours that Diane Abbott lined up for Shadow Home Sec.
Corbyn v keen to have a woman in the job, I'm told

I'm dreaming aren't I

Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 18:07

OH HERE WE GO:

‏@charlielindlar
Shadow AG: Baroness Chakrabarti
Shadow Women and Equal: Sarah Champion
Shadow Home: Diane Abbott
Shadow Wales: Jo Stevens

TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 18:15

night - meh, it's a Labour reshuffle, they happen quite often!! The fun part is when it starts falling apart, which I guess will be about tea time tomorrow.