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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
29
RBeer · 06/10/2016 11:30

At least now we know they didn't invent a time machine. They sirely would have come back by now to stop this stupidity.

jaws5 · 06/10/2016 11:39

Red, amazing, succinct summary of everything, as usual!

This strikes a massive chord with me in the face of fascism reaching uk shores, then perhaps we are all blinded by the sheer will not to believe it!

jaws5 · 06/10/2016 11:46

From the comments section in the Guardian:
Chyna Miéville
‏@janhopis
I think even the fucking Guardian swallowing May's far-right policy as centrist and sensible feels like a Rubicon being crossed

That's exactly how many feel, it's quite puzzling

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 11:59

Phil Hornby ‏@philhornbyitv
UKIP MEP Steven Woolfe taken ill at European Parliament - no news yet on his condition

kevin harrison ‏@kevinharrison
Reports that #UKIP @Steven_Woolfe collapsed in Euro Parliament. Ambulancemen at scene

I'm losing it. My spidey senses are going off.
This week has clearly got to me.

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CeciledeVolanges · 06/10/2016 12:00

It's shocking. Black is white, war is peace and so on. If you read 1984 and go to the section where Winston reads "the Book" some of that is chilling as well.

CeciledeVolanges · 06/10/2016 12:03

Thanks, lala. Given the effect Brexit is already having, all this debate about the best way to do it feels like talking about the most painless way to amputate four healthy limbs, or euthanise a flock of healthy cows for no reason or something. Just taking a lot of things we have and trying to figure out how we can keep maybe 10% of them when we could have kept 100%. Apologies if this is incoherent, losing a fair amount of sleep over it.

prettybird · 06/10/2016 12:07

Re the Herald article on Scottish laws being changed by Westminster - that's what I've been chuntering on about for days now - ever since the "Great Reform Act" was proposed.

It would make a mockery of devolution Angry.

And the Fraser of Allander Institute report, although written from a Scottish perspective, actually suggests that Scotland would be sheltered from the worst of the Brexit effects Shock. So God help the rest of FUKD. SadAngry

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 12:16

Kiran Stacey @kiranstacey
UK's suggestion of listing foreign workers has been noticed around the world. Sri Lankan PM just complained about it at a speech in Delhi.

sigh

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CeciledeVolanges · 06/10/2016 12:21

Red actually I think it's good! Surely the more negative feedback we get the less likely it is to happen?

prettybird · 06/10/2016 12:30

But May et al won't care. Sad

They genuinely think that the Empire still exists world will be falling over itself to do business with FUKD the UK. Hmm

TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 12:40

Telegraph says Woolfe collapsed after being punched by another Ukip MEP.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/06/ukip-leadership-favorite-steven-woolfe-collapses-outside-europea/

"Mr Farage, who was reportedly present during the altercation, declined to comment on whether Mr Woolfe had been punched when approached by The Daily Telegraph."

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 12:42

sluggerotoole.com/2016/10/06/the-irish-in-gb-are-offered-brexit-reassurances-do-they-really-need-them/

Surely relevant to NI a50 case?

Press Association ‏@PA 38s
#Breaking Steven Woolfe in "serious" condition in hospital "following altercation that took place at meeting of Ukip MEPs" - Nigel Farage

OMG the Kippers have had a punch up that has resulted with one of them in a serious condition in hospital!

WOW!

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RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 12:45

www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/06/channel-4-privatised-london-birmingham?CMP=twt_gu

And Channel 4 is still under threat.

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RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 13:10

LBC ‏@LBC 5m
Reports that Steven Woolfe is suffering “from bleeding on the brain” after being punched in the confrontation

Not good. What the hell next?

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missmoon · 06/10/2016 13:15

You couldn't make this up....

Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 13:16

What the hell is happening to this country?! Christ.

Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 13:21

It's Steven Woolfe's birthday today, for some reason this has made me a bit weepy.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 13:26

Shit. Shit. Shit.

If it was another MEP as reports are suggesting then that's GBH (or equivalent) and we will have an EU by-election on our hands, won't we? I just hope it doesn't turn out to be two...

This is not good on a number of levels.

I genuinely hope Woolfe is ok, despite everything.

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TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 13:26

It's alright, Kay Burley's on the case. That'll make everything better.

TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 13:27

Red - You think Ukip would recall/sack an MEP for this?

Nightofthetentacle · 06/10/2016 13:34

A statement has been read on behalf of UKIP and it was at a meeting of UKIP MEPs

And on twitter:
James Crisp
‏@JamesCrisp6
One MEP called Woolfe a ‘joke’. Woolfe told the MEP I’ve had enough of you, took his jacket off. Said "cmon lets settle this outside"

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2016 13:51

Its not about if UKIP would sack or recall an MEP. Its about whether the person that hit Woolfe would be up on a criminal conviction (and therefore no longer able to serve as an MEP).

Guy Verhofstadt ‏@GuyVerhofstadt
^My reaction to Amber Rudd going against UK values:
www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/posts/10155025073875016:0
The EU will defend the rights of her citizens wherever they are

Britain has always been a beacon of tolerance and diversity. It is sad to see that Amber Rudd inflames tensions by denigrating "foreigners" who work in British hospitals, schools, on construction sites; in short people who contribute to the British society.

After recent reports about the rise in xenophobic violence, the outside world watches this latest statement with worry and disbelief. I want to be clear: the EU will defend the fundamental rights of its citizens, wherever they are.

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TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 14:02

ah, yeah I hadn't thought of that.

Anyway, Neil Hamilton has arrived to spread division and loathing in his wake.
"Neil Hamilton, the leader of the Ukip group in the Welsh assembly, is on the BBC News now. He says he has been told Steven Woolfe “picked a fight with someone and came off worse” at the meeting of Ukip MEPs in Strasbourg. Hamilton says he told this by someone who was there. Woolfe was knocked over and hit his head on a window, Hamilton says."
Guardian blog.

GloriaGaynor · 06/10/2016 14:06

Not good. What the hell next?

Farage takes down May singing "it should have been me?"

TheBathroomSink · 06/10/2016 14:09

Harry Cole ‏@MrHarryCole 50m50 minutes ago
BREAKING: Multiple sources suggest that the Steven Woolfe row was with fellow MEP and party defence spokesman Mike Hookem.

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