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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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jaws5 · 05/10/2016 18:19

It's being repeated everywhere in the news: TM is the new centre! Ok... I say green is the new blue!

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 18:29

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/theresa-mays-conference-speech-in-full/

May's speech in full.

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mathanxiety · 05/10/2016 18:39

Speaks of a quiet revolution that happened. This is a turning point in our country. A point to ask what type of country do we want to be.

...but not in Parliament.

TheNorthRemembers · 05/10/2016 18:39

Is there a gentlemen's agreement that parties do not attack each other conference season or why is Corbyn pottering in my neck of the woods again? Or did he react to any of this and I just missed it?

merrymouse · 05/10/2016 18:55

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/on-immigration-and-jobs-theresa-may-employs-the-post-truth-polit/

"Is it really too much to expect the head of our government to address the most pressing issue of the day by leading, not pandering?"

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 18:55

Jeremy Corbyn MP ‏@jeremycorbyn 4h
4 hours ago

Conservative Party leaders have sunk to a new low this week as they fan the flames of xenophobia and hatred in our communities #CPC16

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.
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merrymouse · 05/10/2016 19:07

metro.co.uk/2016/10/03/stay-calm-brexit-worriers-liam-fox-has-a-plan-to-sell-innovative-british-jams-and-marmalade-6168089/

Has Jeremy been pottering, or was he locked in a shed, forced to make innovative jam?

TheElementsSong · 05/10/2016 19:08

Just heard in R4 that one third of academics in UK universities are non-UK born.

They're experts. We hate experts. We hate universities. They're full of that liberal elite scum that this great nation doesn't need. They voted Remain, don't know know The People have spoken?! Not only should we get rid of the 1/3 who are tainted by foreign birth, we should kick all of them out.

Whaddaya think? A convincing impression of a ConKipper? What's that? Not enough spittle? Grin

PattyPenguin · 05/10/2016 19:14

I reckon TM and her crew think they can't get away with a soft Brexit, but they know a hard Brexit will harm the economy and there'll be fewer jobs to go round. To keep their new target demographic on side they have to actively discourage the employment of non-UK workers, whatever their traditional backers in business may say (and they've hardly got anywhere else to go, anyway).

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 19:16

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/wheres-corbyn-labour-leader-found-buying-his-wife-knitwear-befor/
Torygraph report Jeremy is on holiday near Hadrian's wall

Today momentum press release:

We are the future! Join our movement.
Tory Conference has shown that Theresa May’s party is small, nasty and backwards-looking. They are running down our country - stagnant wages, rising debt, fewer homeowners, smaller homes, creaking infrastructure, and services cut to the bone. But the few - the bankers who crashed the economy, landlords receiving billions per year in housing benefit, Sports Direct’s Mike Ashley ripping off workers, Philip Green gutting BHS workers’ pensions, and the tax avoiders not paying their fair share - continue to get away with it.
The people of Britain can’t afford to be treated like this anymore. That’s why a movement is rising, right across the country. It’s a movement that’s ambitious for Britain.
We won’t blame those at the margins for failures at the top. We are confident in our country’s talents to face the future, and build a strong, high-tech economy that rewards those who create the wealth - that means all of us. We refuse to believe that the young can’t have a better life than their parents. We have the talent, the ingenuity and the will to build a better world: affordable housing for all, a national education system, a renationalised NHS, job security for everyone, an equal society, safeguarding the environment, and peace, security and justice. We do that by empowering people and communities to take control of their futures.
We won’t accept second best. Things can, and they will, change. That’s why we’re Momentum. That’s why we’re Labour. That’s why we’re the future.
It’s time.Join our Movement and work for a Labour government with the ambition to transform Britain for all of us.

Shockingly similar to what May has said today.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/theresa-may-has-closed-the-liberal-era-bring-on-christian-democr/
Torygraph again. Bring on Christian democracy

Meanwhile, some militant Remainers are comparing the new Tory government to the Nazis – despite the fact that Amber Rudd and Theresa May's pledge of British jobs for British workers actually puts themin the same camp as Gordon Brown. And it probably won't happen anyway

I'm militant now apparently. Well there's a turn up for the books. The militant liberal minded.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 19:25

The term "National Socialism" arose out of attempts to create a nationalist redefinition of "socialism", as an alternative to both international socialism and free market capitalism. Nazism rejected the Marxist concept of class struggle, opposed cosmopolitan internationalism, and sought to convince all parts of a new German society to subordinate their personal interests to the "common good" and to accept the priority of political interests in economic organisation.

Yep, I'm militant me, for pointing out the above.

Brexit means National Socialism it would seem.

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HPFA · 05/10/2016 19:26

merrymouse That is a very good link - the Telegraph does know how to hire good writers.
What I find so utterly depressing is that we are heading into this awful Donald Trump world where we can't actually have a political debate. Our politicians are now basing their policies on things they know to be false and any attempt to use evidence is shouted down. Justine Greening is now refusing to face any questioning on the grammar schools policy because she knows that it can't be justified in any rational way. And soon it will be the same on other issues.

I lived through the Thatcher years and at least then you could still argue and debate with people on politics, how can you do that now?

I'm actually seriously thinking of moving to Scotland when DD leaves school. I can live with a government I don't agree with. But not one that silences rational argument. If that's the way the world is going I might as well find a country where most people agree with me.

Me2017 · 05/10/2016 19:34

ALl we have to do is maintain siome rhetoric to keep the brexiters happy whilst setting up the least worst form of Brexit we can. It's not very hard to do. It won't be as good as a vote to remain but it will be okay. We will manage.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 19:38

medium.com/@DuncanWeldon/may-ism-7f5af6ecef79#.tms1aveou
May-ism
Back in June, there was a lot of talk of the need for a “party of the 48%”. Today was clear pitch to lead the “party of the 52%”.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/05/ukip-circus-clowns-diane-james-arron-banks?CMP=twt_gu
Aaron Banks speaks like the manager who is just about to have the support of the board withdrawn and get sacked
Ukip in chaos? Ukip redundant? Not on your life – this is just the beginning.

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Mistigri · 05/10/2016 20:00

Christian democracy huh? It's not the 50s. Who is this a play for? I'm sure I can't be unusual amongst british people in no longer knowing a single regular church goer (excluding those who attend church out of obligation of course).

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 20:19

Mistigri I think religion is generally pretty irrelevant to Brits under 40. Mainly because we were taught liberal values and to question things in Education.

It makes me worry too, about education and what will happen with that.

Could we see a system where evidence and questioning things is frowned upon growing up? Afterall media studies is already widely spoken about in disparaging terms.

Its all about this British stuff isn't it? What the fuck are British values if its not liberalism. Damned if I know.

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SapphireStrange · 05/10/2016 20:21

Me, do you think May is just saying what brexiters want to hear now, but will in fact get us a 'least worst' Brexit?

I did think that at first; I was quite sure we were heading for Fudgit. I'm not nearly that confident any more.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 20:28

Twitter
#proudcitizenoftheworld is currently trending in the UK this evening. There are also similar hash tags doing the rounds.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 20:33

We can't get fudgit now. The racism has burnt our bridges.

I fear that only a50 legal challenges can save us by buying us precious time and maybe at least protect our human rights.

I am running out of hope fast. I'm holding my breath on that ruling. I'm scared.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 20:46

Huff post have said that Priti Patel has been unhappy at the tone of the ConKip conference over immigration.

Then I suggest that she tenders her resignation immediately and explains exactly why.

SwedishEdith · 05/10/2016 21:11

I do think she is still saying what Brexiters want to hear. How genuine it all is, I still can't tell. And Carswell and Woolfe want to, or have considered, joining the tories. Well, why not for Woolfe - he'll be out of a job in a few years.

I wonder if ID cards will rear their head again? I know David Davis is against and May said "May said this in 2010, "This bill is the first step of many that this government is taking to reduce the control of the state over decent, law-abiding people and hand power back to them.

"With swift parliamentary approval, we aim to consign identity cards and the intrusive ID card scheme to history within 100 days."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may-scrapping-id-cards

But they just are so Theresa May aren't they?

prettybird · 05/10/2016 21:11

I'm horrified by May's claim that the Conservatives are now representing the "Centre" HmmShock

Orwell must gave been a time traveller as this really is doublethink. By keeping on repeating that these right wing racist policies are actually the centre, they're redefining "reality" Sad, aided by the Media and being accepted by the general populace Sad

HesterThrale · 05/10/2016 21:18

Exactly prettybird. It's scary how fast that Overton window has moved this summer.

Me2017 · 05/10/2016 21:29

Whoever is in the centre has power in the UK, always has been the case. Labour only got back power after Thatcher when they kicked out the left and stole the middle ground policies from the Tories. It's like people stealing a towel which stays on the same patch of ground all the time. The Coalition and then Tories got power back from Labour when they had centre ground policies. It's why we're a fairly stable country. I don'#t think there is anything to fear at all.

May will say the nice stuff to keep the 52% happy and then do what is best for Britain within the overall mandate that there will be a Brexit. I would not worry about human rights either. We have had them in the UK for longer than just about any nation on the planet and will continue to have them.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 21:44

We have human rights - still took 30 years to use for Hillsborough. And what about the miners? Or Bloody Sunday, which is still not on the radar.

Noting here that May wants to protect the army (and potentially the police in the future) from nasty human rights lawyers.

That's a step backward not forward.

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