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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Unicornsarelovely · 05/10/2016 14:28

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/05/birmingham-witnessing-tory-reformation-conservative-conference-brexit

Interesting Rafael Behr article which treats TM as Elizabeth I and the pro-EU remainers as secret Catholics. I enjoyed it, and found it strangely heartening, not least because I have a gap between the stairs and landing which would be a perfect priest hole!

I'm not totally convinced by the comparison between Liam Fox and Francis Drake...

Thank you as always for the links, Red.

time4chocolate · 05/10/2016 14:34

Peregrina (post 12.44pm) - I couldn't agree more. I live in a Grammar School/Super Selective area and this really boils my p*s. We have more private prep schools than you can shake a stick at with lots of parents paying £££££ in the hope their DC can get a Grammar place, alternatively, they choose the state option and pay for 18/24 months of tutoring at £30 per hour. (Check out the 11+ forum on results day tomorrow to get a taster of the madness). Meanwhile everyone else has to make do as the content of the 11 plus is not taught in state schools. Creating more Grammar schools whilst appealing to more lower income families and their children to aspire to do better is almost insulting. Level the bloomin playing field to all and then everybody has equal chance to aspire and reach their potential. Rant over!!

prettybird · 05/10/2016 14:47

" if you are an accountant or middle man who helps people avoid tax, we are coming after you too"

May does know that tax avoidance is legal, doesn't she? Confused While tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is down to poorly written tax laws and tax breaks to encourage big business to come here which are the Government's responsibility. Hmm

Now, I hate the tax avoiders like Starbucks and Amazon as much as anyone, but their lack of tax payments has been the Government's fault and not dodgy accountants. Angry

CeciledeVolanges · 05/10/2016 15:30

And don't forget Brexit takes us conveniently out of BEPS, the international plan for governments to co-operate in eliminating certain forms of tax avoidance by big multinationals.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 16:08

www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/theresa-may-acted-legally-on-brexit-ni-court-hears-1.2817599
NI a50 challenge case continues

LBC radio talk about Amber Rudd's speech
'For the state must draw a sharp line of distinction between those who, as members of the nation, are the foundation and support of its existence and greatness, and those who are domiciled in the state, simply as earners of their livelihood there.'
"Very important that firms declare how much of their workforce is foreign because they're just domiciled in this state simply as earners of their livelihood there. They're not members of the nation, they're not members of the foundation and the support of the nation's existence and greatness.
You have to have a sharp line of distinction between those who are members of the nation and those who are just domiciled here as earners of their livelihoods.

Read the link for the point of the article...

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twofingerstoGideon · 05/10/2016 16:21

May is very good. I am a supporter. I only joint the party when there is a female leader so I had to wait from 1979 when I last joined to now. Worth the wait.

Jesus wept.

CeciledeVolanges · 05/10/2016 16:37

Red that is truly shocking and horrifying.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 16:41

Chris Ship ‏@chrisshipitv 8m
UKIP's @Steven_Woolfe - who wants to be leader: Theresa May promoted me 'to wonder whether our future was within her new Conservative Party'

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jaws5 · 05/10/2016 16:46

Amber Rudd has the fanatic fervour of a Nazi speaking of the Fatherland. I'm horrified.

shutthefrontdoor123 · 05/10/2016 16:56

They're not members of the nation, they're not members of the foundation and the support of the nation's existence and greatness.

What the hell does that mean? What is she on? Might she want a lesson on how much foreign loot this nation's greatness and existence is based on? Unbelievable.

jaws5 · 05/10/2016 17:00

It's an extract from Mein Kampf, actually, which is eerily similar to Amber Rudd's speech yesterday.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 17:01

Read the article. Amber Rudd didn't say it. Someone else did.

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jaws5 · 05/10/2016 17:02

James O'Brien read it on LBC, the point being it's almost indistinguishable from Rudd's

shutthefrontdoor123 · 05/10/2016 17:04

Oh ok - deep breath... and relax.

jaws5 · 05/10/2016 17:06

I wish 😊

merrymouse · 05/10/2016 17:30

That citizen of the world comment is very "I made you and I can break you".

I suspect it's the kind of thing they say to you if you want to leave the mafia, right before they take you for a drive next to a large expanse of water.

It's a bit of a different vibe to the whole "we're not little Englanders clinging to Europe" schtick.

merrymouse · 05/10/2016 17:33

You have to have a sharp line of distinction between those who are members of the nation and those who are just domiciled here as earners of their livelihoods.

So as we were talking about tax, is it still OK to earn your livelihood here and be domiciled somewhere else? I suspect given the changing of the guard, maybe not.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 17:53

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/05/democracy-politicians-populism-institutions?CMP=twt_gu

Huff post have said that Priti Patel has been unhappy at the tone of the ConKip conference over immigration. Whilst Marine Le Pen is delighted by it, which really chimes with the pitch for the centre ground.

Also the Guardian are reporting that Merkel has suddenly turned tough and is taking a noticeably harder line.
Pure coincidence that its at the same time as the ConKip conference.

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merrymouse · 05/10/2016 17:59

You've got to hand it to the conservatives. Labour looked dead in the water last week, but with today's speeches they have done a top job of making Corbyn look like a pretty reasonable bloke.

jaws5 · 05/10/2016 18:07

But Red why would Merkel or anyone be cross? ConKip are the new centre, they say... Any similarities with the European extreme right are purely coincidental

jaws5 · 05/10/2016 18:08

I was thinking that merry!

jaws5 · 05/10/2016 18:10

Just heard in R4 that one third of academics in UK universities are non-UK born. No worries, the long term British unemployed will take their place in no time!

SwedishEdith · 05/10/2016 18:14

Theresa May is certainly not centrist. But if you tell people you are, they start to believe it. She's trying to redefine it. And hoover up the Labour voters who voted Leave (working class Kippers, really).

I love the way we mustn't offend the racists now Grin.

Thank god for James O'Brien - he was brilliant when he interviewed Corbyn.

ManonLescaut · 05/10/2016 18:15

Of course she's not centre. She's hardcore loony right.

SwedishEdith · 05/10/2016 18:15

Merkel won't tolerate racists.

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