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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 12:24

So she is making a pitch for the white working class vote. Much in the way Maggie Thatcher did, but MT had council house sales to offer as a bribe.

What actually has TM got? Calling out the rich is very nice rhetoric, but it's meaningless from her Govt with a number of extremely wealthy people in top jobs, who have gained their wealth by not exactly transparent means. Will people see that?

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:25

The NHS is vital and we all take enormous pride in it. And I mean all. There is cross party support for the NHS. Praises doctors and nurses and let us take this opportunity to say 'thank you'. The NHS should unite us. Labour tried to us it to divide us. Every time we have spent more, every election they have said they would privatise it. But we have protected it. The only party to cut fund to NHS was Labour party in Wales.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 12:27

If you are a tax dodger we are coming after you. If you are an accountant or middle man who helps people avoid tax, we are coming after you too

Yeah, I will believe that when I see it. Start with Andrea Leasdom, who never did publish her tax returns.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:27

Bigging up Jeremy Hunt. Labour do not have a monopoly on compassion. They are sanctionmous and have moral supority. They gave up right to call themselves the party of working class when they gave up the centre ground.

We believe in the good that government can do.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:28

It doesn't matter where you were born, your accent, religion, man or woman. All that should matter is that you are prepared to work.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 12:29

Stealing policies from Labour hey, on the NHS? So we have just told foreign doctors to shove off before 10 years are up. We have just told our own that they have four years here before they up sticks and go.

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 12:31

It doesn't matter where you were born, your accent, religion, man or woman. All that should matter is that you are prepared to work.

This just does not square with Amber Rudd's racist plans. Has she realised that she has gone too far? The attacks on Labour do suggest that they are more worried about Labour than they are admitting.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:32

rebalancing our economy is where we start.

only genuine social reform can deliver opportunity to all. Every child can get into a good school. Every person should be able to work if they can.

We announced the end of retesting of those with chronic heath conditions for benefits.

Talking about slavery and life sentences. Reduced stop and search and disportionate targeting of young black men.

But injustices continue. Talking about ethnic minorities. It is not just those from minority groups. white working class boys are least likely to go to university.

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TheForeignOffice · 05/10/2016 12:34

I smell an interest rise coming in a desperate attempt to jack up GBP from the depths of hell

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:35

Everyone has the chance to go as far as their talents will go. We want to be a meritocracy and that starts now. Britain after brexit will need to make the most of all the talent we have.

Talking about bad schools and how children in the north and midlands have less chance of in a good school.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:36

Communities that need change have been told they can't have it. (referring to schools) Selective schools, moving to better area, traveling to a better school. This is a scandal.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:40

Talking about sport and team GB. You did your country proud.

One moment stood out. It wasn't from Rio. In Mexico - the Brownlee brothers and how Alaister helped Johnny.

Seeing his brothers struggle he didn't pass by. He stopped and didn't the prize and helped his brother

Uses this as a metaphor for her vision for Britain. There is more to life than self interest.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:42

I note her choice of clothing btw. Its an outfit she's worn before. I think this is actually relevant to her overall message.

Shes now waffling about grammer schools and the country being for everyone.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:43

Its about action. Not just being someone.

Having the courage to see things through. Its a noble calling. Where many see government as the problem I see it as the solution to things too.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:44

Going on about the strengths of previous PMs.

And how the government can do good.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 12:44

Selective schools, moving to better area, traveling to a better school. This is a scandal

Come on Theresa - you want selection to keep the riff-raff out, but at the same time you are trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator, whose children won't get into your selective schools anyway.

This will play very well in southern England constituencies where parents are stumping up for little private schools and can save the fees. It won't play well with those who have kids in good comprehensives, who find that they now have to stump up for private school fees, to avoid the Sec Mods.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:44

Those people who step up the challenge at key moments. Not every generation have that moment. This is our moment.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:47

The responsibility to do this lies with us. whether leaver or remainer come with me to met this moment and sieze the day.

/ends

That speech will go down VERY well with a lot of people despite the utter hypocrisy it also contains. It was well received. It will please many.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:48

Heather Stewart ‏@GuardianHeather
May says Britain is,"built on the bonds of family, community, citizenship". Feels like a conscious rejection of Thatcherite individualism.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:51

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
May opening interestingly on distributional impact of low interest rates and QE.. "a change has got to come"... presumably not to rates??

If I were Carney, I would be considering whether I need to update my CV.

I agree a hint about interest rates seemed to be in there.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 12:51

It will please very many, and suck up some Tory votes, but most of it is noise. Will we see impoverished areas get more money, or better schools, or better rail links, or fast broadband? Like hell we will.

Will she crack down on wealthy tax dodgers? Like hell, she won't.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:56

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 43m
at this point, might be worth noting that the Conservative Party owe its majority to winning over mass majority LibDem seats, unexpectedly

Yes but that's fine faisal. They are trying to get the 20% of the vote that like UKIP as well as disaffected Labour voters. But yes, she shouldn't loose sight of this either.

The Witney By-Election breakdown will be interesting...

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam 52m
"believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere" the PM tells
Well I feel like a citizen of the world and am definitely (unfortunately at this point) British too but I feel the point was more aimed at foreign nationals and a warning to get your papers in order and become a British citizen.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 13:38

The Lib Dems are working hard in Witney, but there was such a huge Tory majority, it will be difficult to win. The lowest majority Cameron ever got was just under 8,000. It's possible that there are enough disaffected Tories to either abstain or vote LibDem, but we will have to wait and see.

The Lib Dems very visible campaigns do not always translate into votes.

Me2017 · 05/10/2016 14:02

May is very good. I am a supporter. I only joint the party when there is a female leader so I had to wait from 1979 when I last joined to now. Worth the wait. Long interim.

Go May.

CeciledeVolanges · 05/10/2016 14:05

Me2017 how are you defining "good" here? Apart from in the sense of "having female reproductive organs." I look up to strong female politicians such as Nicola Sturgeon, Caroline Lucas, Angela Merkel, Helle Thorning-Schmidt, et cetera. And there are good female role models in other spheres of life. As a lawyer, I particularly like Helena Kennedy, Baroness Hale and Shami Chakrabarti.