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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 11:55

the referendum was not about the EU. it was about deep profound feeling that it works for the privileged few and for whom it works.

It wasn't the wealthy who made the biggest sacrifies after the crash. It was the working classes.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 11:57

Going on about having the best education and the financial centre in the world. Talking about divisive nationalists driving us apart.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:00

Going on about social contract and bonds of society. Need to employ locally not from abroad. Talking about paying fair share of tax. And elites. If you are a boss who treats your staff badly, or uses offshore tax or someone who protects money of terrorists I'm putting you on warning.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:02

Attacking the media and commenters about the way they talk about patriotism, immigration etc.

Its time to remember the good that government can do. The state exists to provide what communities and the public can not.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:04

everyone must play by the same rules. The labour party is divisive. It embrace the politics of pointless protest. It supports the voices of hate. You know what some people call them? The nasty party.

Much appalause.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:05

Where labour build barriers we will build bridges.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:06

Everyone can live life free from fear

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Nightofthetentacle · 05/10/2016 12:06

What? She's on about the well off not knowing what it's really like, not understanding why people voted out, thinking they have 'illiberal' views on crime.

I thought the well off voted for Brexit in fairly handsome numbers?
I though Labour supporters voted to Remain in fairly chunky numbers?

Oh fucking hell. I really am hopeful that the art 50 challenge is successful [and or any other permutation of Lords challenge/NI challenge/Scotland grumbling that prevents total executive power]

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:08

a50 triggered no later than march.
great repeal bill in next parliament session
able to make own laws.
our judges making decisions.

very definite and firm about this in tone.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:10

We are not going to be subject to the European court of justice. we are leaving to be sovereign. The Britain we build after brexit is goin be a global Britain. we will not retreat from world. time for a bold new confidence role in the world. ratify paris climate change deal.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:11

Making a big deal about the armed forces and no longer will they be haraged by human rights legal cases.

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Nightofthetentacle · 05/10/2016 12:13

"Everyone can live life free from fear"

I am shitting myself about our prospects, so this is good to hear.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:13

shortage of affordable homes. working on a new industry strategy.

identifying industries which are stratetic to the UK. (mentions car manufacturing).

inspiring cultural and economic revolution of all our regional cities.

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CeciledeVolanges · 05/10/2016 12:17

Ironically, just off to have a quick hyperventilate outside. Thanks for listening so we don't have to...

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:17

the conservative party will always believe in free markets.

where markets are dysfunctional we should intervene. We should get rid of complex and confusing pricing structures.

Talking about energy companies and how its wrong. Not right that rural areas have no broadband.

Talks about help to buy and right to buy is right. We need to build more homes. More and faster house building.

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TheBathroomSink · 05/10/2016 12:17

Rafael Behr ‏@rafaelbehr 21m21 minutes ago
The function of this speech is to redefine the referendum result as instruction to do everything May wants to do. It's a mandate-grab.

(((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 3m3 minutes ago
Last week people were claiming the Left had Theresa May and the Tory right on the run.

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 4m4 minutes ago
This is the Conservative speech the Daily Mail has dreamed of.

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 29s29 seconds ago
Mail regularly takes aim at the "undeserving rich" in the manner May did.

Nightofthetentacle · 05/10/2016 12:17

Broadband for all!!!

I really should just read Red 's summary as it would be much less stressful and just as informative.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:19

Will press ahead with HS2. Even though controversial. And signed up to Hinkley Point. Will make big decisions, because enonomy strong and we have reduced deficient. Improve productivity.

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CeciledeVolanges · 05/10/2016 12:20

Jesus Christ.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:20

People will mortgages have found it got cheaper. (said as if a bad thing) People with savings have got poorer.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:21

People will mortgages have found it got cheaper. (said as if a bad thing) People with savings have got poorer.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:22

Workers rights protected and enhanced by conservatives. Tax is the price we play for living in a civilised society. If you are a tax dodger we are coming after you.

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RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 12:22

If you are an accountant or middle man who helps people avoid tax, we are coming after you too.

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TheBathroomSink · 05/10/2016 12:23

People will mortgages have found it got cheaper. (said as if a bad thing) - I actually agree with her on this. Mortgages being cheaper isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it has come at a massive cost to savers, and there are a lot more savers overall than there are mortgage holders.

Gumpendorf · 05/10/2016 12:23

Broadband for all!!!
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Broadband? Surely the reintroduction of 'press button A'? Isn't that what people voted for?

Thanks for this thread. So lovely to read all the common sense in these strange times. Flowers