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Brexit

Westministenders. Whilst Boris makes more daft promises, a50 hits the courts. Poo and Fan Time.

997 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/10/2016 15:39

There is no plan. Or is there?

We’ve talked on the last thread about how it’s being set up as ‘Hard Brexit’ or ‘Unilateral Continuity’ (dubbed here as the ‘Off The Top Of The Cliff Plan’) by the hard line Brexiteers either as the plan or the means by which to force a softer deal with the EU (which perhaps seems to be preferred choice of Mrs May herself).

The last few weeks have been plagued by comments by various members of the Cabinet over what Brexit means – comments which are frankly bollocks and show an outstanding world class level of ignorance – and have led to us being laughed at (Verhofstadt head of EU negotiations), facing outright anger and demands for compensation (Japan) and pure bewilderment (USA unless your name is Donald).

And they have been repeated contradicted and undermined by May in response with, the response that this is not government policy and she will not be giving a running commentary.

Thus making the UK look like the world’s leading political basket case whilst at the same time being ‘an excellent place to make new investment in’. Obviously. As long as you prattle the words ‘Free Trade’ a lot a bright new world of opportunity will open up. Just look at the Japanese position on that.

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But really the reason why ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is still so vague, could be a legal one.

The next step in the Battle for Brexit, is in the courts and over whether the Royal Prerogative can be used to trigger a50 or whether May will have to first pass it through Parliament before she can notify the EU that we are leaving. This may prove to be a big hurdle for the government and one they have a real chance of losing particular the NI case.

The two big a50 challenges (though there are others) come from a cross party NI challenge supported by the NI Attorney General in Belfast and a crowdfunded ‘People’s challenge’ in the English courts. The NI challenge is characterised by a loss of rights and the international agreement that is the Good Friday Agreement, whilst the English challenge includes this as well as other acquired rights and concerns over the devolved assemblies and the Act of Union.

The government’s defence to this, which they sought a bizarre court order to protect and keep secret which was later overturned, is that ministers have better expertise to implement the start of Brexit than the courts (see Johnson, Fox and Davies), that it does not fall under parliament’s jurisdiction and that whilst the Royal Prerogative can’t be used to remove rights, because ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is so vague it’s impossible to challenge use of the Royal Prerogative because we don’t know precisely which rights will be affected!

The case for the government is also being presented by a relatively inexperienced lawyer.

However, some very respected constitutional law academics think the core of the government’s argument is sound, though this might be lost in the ridiculous other defences, the government have put along it. Their lead of the defence is a lawyer, who has little public law experience too.
The government need to win both these big cases, to ensure that they can use the Royal Prerogative. Don’t forget the likelihood of appeals regardless of the first ruling too.

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Into the political void the Irish PM has stepped in to led discussions into the future of the island, the Japanese have issued a Brexit ‘wish list, the Spanish have staked a claim to co-sovereignty of Gibraltar (something rejected overwhelming in a referendum in 2002) and threatened to block negotiations otherwise, a French Presidential hopeless has kindly offered us another referendum, the USA have reiterated that they won’t do a deal with us until our WTO status is in good order and the Italians have said ‘No chance!’. This is the UK taking back control folks.

At home Ken Clarke has said that May needs to get her act together, George Osborne has said Brexit did not mean hard Brexit and Dominic Grieve has urged her not to sleepwalk into a hard Brexit. The Tory conference looks set for all out Tory War.

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In a side issue the pro-Brexit newspaper, The Sun has come out in an editorial telling the Government to have the courage to pull the plug on the child sex abuse inquiry which was set up by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary, calling it a ‘farce’ and saying its scope was too wide and unmanageable… It might seem unrelated, but it calls May’s judgment and handling of large issues into question. If she allows it to plow on, it could turn into an even bigger farce and embarrassment, yet if she U-Turns it could make her look weak and have the potential to do the same over Brexit. She’ll struggle to throw Amber Rudd under the bus over the matter, because most of this happened on her watch. This will come back to haunt May. It also starts to question Murdoch’s position and opinion of May. Is this a withdrawal of support for her?

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In summary, the next six to eight weeks are crucial to what Brexit looks like. It’s time for the shit to start hitting the fan. Brace yourselves for next couple of weeks. Get stocked up on the gin

We are not being led by UK politics anymore nor even internal squabbles really but the courts and outside forces which are shaping what is possible and achievable rather than what we want.

All talk is of a hard Brexit. It might well prove to be the case yet. We aren’t there yet though. There could be some more twists and turns yet.

An article 50 defeat in the courts for the government throws it back to Parliamentary scrutiny, taking up time and potentially watering down demands. It could even produce the result that a50 is deemed not fit for purpose and we have to go back to the EU begging for a new treaty for a way out (which technically they would have to do as they legally have to recognise democratic votes). This might be our only way to prevent a chaotic exit from the EU. This might led not to an exit though, but a two tier EU – a proposal suggested by, errrr Guy Verhofstadt, Head of EU Negotiations – and is very unlikely to prove to be the quick exit by 2020 that Kippers so desperately want. And a second referendum on the deal reached, in order to prove it was the will of the people. It could also prove a threat to the current government and raise the realistic spectre of a rebellion and a vote of no confidence and in turn a General Election.

Of course the EU themselves have a couple of their own headaches at the polls to survive too, whilst the German banks start to get the jitters. And there is the small matter of America having their own Brain Fart in the coming months, which could have a big impact on what happens next.

Yep, this is taking back control folks. What do you mean it feels more like a game of roulette? So might even say Russian roulette.

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Thread gallery
29
RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 09:49

BTW I would not be surprised at orchestrated and coordinated mass resignations of doctors happening.

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HPFA · 05/10/2016 09:51

Well, thanks to this Thread I've just ended up volunteering to help the LibDem campaign in Witney! I still don't know the best way to fight this whole awful vision for the country that TM seems to have. But for the moment this seemed like something good to do. If the LibDems could get a decent vote share then it might make her re-think her whole UKIP vote strategy.

Kaija · 05/10/2016 09:52

So the Tories are now officially to the right of UKIP on immigration. And Enoch Powell.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 09:53

order-order.com/2016/10/05/may-attacks-libertarian-right/
Guido Fawkes is not happy. Right wing, pro-Brexit.

Funny how things turn out isn't it, eh?

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CeciledeVolanges · 05/10/2016 09:58

Natalie Bennett is also tweeting that Theresa May is the new UKIP leader...

Me2017 · 05/10/2016 10:04

May being clear about being "centrist" will please most people -right and left. She gets the mood of the country exactly. She will gather support from left and right. labour are going to have a devil of a job in 2020 at this rate.

(The suggestion above the Tories are rights of UKPI on immigration surprises me. Half the Tories like half the country were anti Brexit anyway and plenty of those who voted for Brexit simply wanted more control of immigration).

PattyPenguin · 05/10/2016 10:13

Guido Fawkes isn't happy, but Theresa May isn't trying to appeal to him and his ilk. She's obviously had people working on the reasons behind the Leave vote and particularly the numbers of traditional Labour voters who backed Brexit. She wants them to turn into Tory voters at the next GE and the ones after that. Hence "a country that works for everyone" - she's targeting the "left behind". And soz, Guido, but the kind of country you want is really, really bad for exactly those people.

The whole thing is fascinating, is a slightly gruesome way.

missmoon · 05/10/2016 10:17

I'm in the centre pretty much (I vote Labour/Tory/Lib Dem depending on the local candidate), but the current Tory party rhetoric doesn't speak to me at all. In fact, it really scares me. So no, I don't think TM is a "centrist" at all, she is far to the right, I see little difference between the Tory party speeches at the conference and UKIP / even EDL. Whatever they are trying to do, it isn't to appeal to the "centre". They are presumably appealing to the lowest common denominator.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 10:21

I thought Guido was pretty anti-establishment?
May is not going centrist. She is trying to occupy the ground that the National Socialists did.

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PattyPenguin · 05/10/2016 10:39

Guido is only anti-establishment in that he wants to shrink the state.

E.g. a post on his blog dated 15/12/14 - note his comments "good news" and "excellent".

"At last some government good news:

“Hospitals and fire services will be run “outside the public sector” as the Conservatives dramatically shrink the state and cut costs, a senior minister has disclosed. Francis Maude, the Cabinet Office minister, told The Telegraph that services could be handed over to mutual companies owned by employers and other non-state bodies. Mr Maude, who is drawing up plans for £20 billion of Whitehall savings by 2020, said that with the exception of defence and policing, every function of the state could potentially be done outside the public sector.”

Excellent."

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 10:43

I presume we will go back to having plaques on walls saying 'Insured with XXX' and only then will the appropriate fire service put the fire out.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 10:49

That's what I thought.

Because Brexit was obviously going to shrink the state Hmm

It really does illustrate how Brexit was never going to satisfy anyone because it meant different things to different people. The fact that some pro-Brexit figures are waking up to that realisation and that they themselves are being referred to in a way that's not favourable does give me a grim twisted sense of pleasure in the midst of the car crash.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 10:57

I read for example that Bamford of JCB has lost a lot of money because his exports are down - although this pre-dates the Referendum. (Oh dear, let me get my hankie out to wipe my tears away.) It's not him who will suffer, he still has a good few millions, it's his workers on low wages who will get the push, but they believed him and voted Leave. I am 100% sure he won't trouble himself to bail them out.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 11:07

Jails. Lets talk about jails. Seems forgotten in the midst of listing foreigners

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-plans-draft-soldiers-prison-8979127

Justice Secretary Liz Truss launched a campaign to recruit former troops in a bid to bring ‘discipline’ to Brit jails.
But reformed lags, who served time in the 1980s and 90s when more ex-military worked as guards, claim the move is ‘asking for trouble’.
David Honeywell, a former prisoner-turned criminology lecturer, said a return to the old scheme could leave inmates serving under a ‘brutal and hostile’ regime.
Mr Honeywell said: “The old-school prison officer culture was made up of mostly ex-military
“Not all ex-military have integrity or courage.
“Their brutal and hostile approach towards prisoners resulted in part to the eventual Strangeways Prison riots in 1990.”

Whilst at the same time the military will no longer be subject to legal action relating to Human Rights. What sort of training for a later career in a prison will that produce?

When can we expect the announcement about the return of National Service? And when's the return of the workhouse scheduled for? Is that on the ConKip agenda for the day?

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TheBathroomSink · 05/10/2016 11:08

Bamford employs a whole bunch of temp workers and is reknowned for laying them off shortly before Christmas every year.

This area (not far from JCB Rocester) was always going to vote Leave no matter what he said. One of the other major private sector employers (who has a better reputation and higher local profile than Bamford) came out firmly Remain, to no avail.

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 11:14

Amber Rudd has said "Don't call me racist". How about not making Racist statements, Ms Rudd, and start calling out the Racists in your midst?

TheElementsSong · 05/10/2016 11:24

Amber Rudd has said "Don't call me racist".

Get with the programme, Pere - since June 24, actually being a racist is not as bad as: Calling a racist a racist, "sneering" (aka disagreeing in any way) at a Leave voter, being sarcastic at a Leave voter, wanting our parliamentary democracy to be a parliamentary democracy, or worst of all Talking Britain Down.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 11:39

Love this.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2016/10/good-news-daily-mail-48-cent-country-now-elite
48% of country now 'elite'.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malta-pm-uk-will-be-treated-like-greece-during-brexit-a7345541.html
UK to be treated like Greece.
That's going well for the Greeks isn't it?

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam

strategy for Conservative leader to reach out to Corbyn-sceptic Labour voters not new of course - Cameron called it "common ground" year ago
..May calls it "new centre". But defines it rather differently to Cam in aftermath of Brexit - against liberal elite "bewildered" by the 52%
Cameron and Osborne wanted to reach the centre by persuading international capital to go North with N Powerhouse, HS2, China, pro-EU etc...
May's strategy less internationalist than DCs - she will see greater embrace of power of British state "remember the good government can do"
I asked her @theresa_may if she was a free marketeer: "there’s no question of abandoning Conservative free market principles" she said
In any event, this speech won't be about Brexit, but will be conditioned by the political currents that brought it. It is a watershed.

Ironically Ruth Davidson has JUST said she is an old fashioned tory and that she believes in small government.

PM up next....

www.buzzfeed.com/marieleconte/tory-mp-attacks-unsettling-home-office-plan-to-make-business?utm_term=.al2JpW2NGB#.tc59A05bQz
Tory MP Attacks “Unsettling” Home Office Plan To Make Businesses List ForeignWorkers
Neil Carmichael said that the “divisive” plan “has no place in 21st Century Britain”.

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Peregrina · 05/10/2016 11:39

Amber Rudd's father has now been revealed to have been involved in a business she ran, despite being declared unfit to be a Director. This does not reflect terribly well on her. This is the government which wants to support those who are 'just managing', not people whose business dealings are crooked. (Pull the other one!)

Nightofthetentacle · 05/10/2016 11:40

Indeed. Calling someone a racist is never permissable these days. Dreadful slur.

TM about to speak, I really need to work but may watch on telly and twitter simultaneously, in for a penny, in for a pound.

Peregrina · 05/10/2016 11:42

Can't bear to watch - will end up throwing things at the screen. Why waste a good telly?

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 11:47

May on stage now. On BBC parliament.
Will try to post here key points.

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CeciledeVolanges · 05/10/2016 11:50

Red good point in jails.
Everyone else: sorry, I can't watch. My face is already in my hands here.

RedToothBrush · 05/10/2016 11:51

No vision happens by itself. You need to put the hours and the effort in too.

Speaks of a quiet revolution that happened. This is a turning point in our country. A point to ask what type of country do we want to be.

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Nightofthetentacle · 05/10/2016 11:52

Fucking hell: "a quiet revolution" has taken place. Fuck fuck fuck.