to agree with the positive Brexit plan below?!

[MenMust]

Having watched a documentary recently about the making of the London Olympics 2012 Opening Ceremony, I was reminded of the sheer skill, innovation and creativity possessed by this nation. This left no doubt in my mind that the UK is completely capable of making a huge success outside the EU.
The first thing the people of the UK need to do is to focus on positive outcomes and opportunities created by the historic decision to leave the EU. Everyone, including those who voted to remain, need to put aside all negativity and differences and anger. Whether you voted to exit or not, it is now going to happen and so all thoughts of doom and disaster are wasted energy and need to be put aside. Pessimism is a self-fulfilling prophesy and if you concentrate on what you think are the negative consequences of Brexit, you will drag the UK down.
Of course there is a risk to exiting the EU. However, there was always a risk to staying in the EU as it is a changing entity. A vote to remain was not a vote for the status quo. The UK will face challenges as it has always done and there will be those who lose out because of Brexit but there will also be those who gain. The EU however also faces an uncertain future. The Euro is in trouble and requires fiscal and budgetary union for any chance of survival. The EU’s economic performance has been poor and its share of world GDP is set to fall. It has failed to keep up with 21st Century globalisation and emerging markets. Further integration is not popular. The EU needs to change radically if it is to survive.
Now the UK has a new PM, Theresa May in place as well as a new Cabinet, the Government needs to appoint the best advisors and negotiators in the land who can help secure the UK the best deal with the EU. The Government should take its time to work out what the best outcome is for the UK before declaring article 50. The UK is in a good position to secure a favourable deal with the EU. We are the biggest importer within the EU and in fact import more from the EU than the USA. It is in the EU’s interest to work with us rather than against us.
The Government needs to ensure that our fishing industry regains rights of fishing areas that it has lost previously under the EU Common Fisheries Policy. EU laws that have had the effect of closing down fishing businesses and communities need to be reviewed.
It is important to remember that, although we have voted to leave the EU, we are still friends with our European neighbours and will continue to maintain a close relationship with them and support them in whatever way we can.
We should now open up to the rest of the world.
Our Government should secure and enhance friendships and relationships with other countries. They need to look at trading partnerships and free trade agreements (FTAs) with all countries we wish to trade with. Australia has already announced it wishes to look at trade deals with the UK. China and India are set to be the future trading powers so we need to start discussions with them. We could possibly forge a link with NAFTA (North American free trade bloc). We should look at our relationship with the Commonwealth and foster trade and agreements with our Commonwealth partners. The EU is the only trading bloc in the world that requires such stringent conditions on its members and this has stifled competition and productivity over a number of years rather than promoting it. We are the sixth largest economy in the world and so other countries will want to do business with us.
Our Government should ease its focus on achieving a balanced budget by 2020. Reducing our debt is still important but should now be done over a longer period and the Government should spend more money on capital projects to help counteract the slowing of growth. It should also look at reducing the tax burden further.
Our police and legal system should stamp down and eradicate racism and racist attacks on our fellow migrants as this is not acceptable. The UK is still a society that welcomes people of all ethnicities, cultures, religions and countries. Racism was not what Brexit was about.
The Government needs to ensure that all project funding commitments by the EU shall be stuck to until we have left the EU. Also, it should ensure that UK organisations and individuals are not discriminated by the EU leading up to our exit.
Once we leave the EU, the Government should commit to funding existing projects previously funded by the EU for at least another three years until it has a department or system in place to make decisions about continuing or ending project funding.
The amount that the UK paid towards the EU budget should be used for capital investment projects within the UK and also for improving and supporting the NHS. The capital projects to improve our infrastructure such as roads will help boost aggregate demand in the UK and help counteract any negative effects on GDP of leaving the EU. The Government should spend money to improve areas of our country that have been neglected or just need fixing.
UK exports will be cheaper due to the reduced value of Sterling. This is an opportunity to promote and increase what we sell to the rest of the world. We must take advantage of this.
UK imports will be more expensive due to the reduced value of Sterling and possible import tariffs. The Government could provide tax breaks to ease the burden on companies that import.
We should focus on buying British goods and supporting our businesses.
We have many of the greatest universities in the world and the Government should invest more via research grants to help boost our universities success even more.
The City of London has great financial institutions and London is one of the world’s top financial centres. It is renowned for its flexibility, resourcefulness, connections, highly skilled workforce, experience. The City with the support of the Government should ensure that it does everything so that it remains one of, if not the most attractive centre for finance in the world.
Finally, we, the UK need to stop underestimating what our country can achieve. Our history has shown what we can do. We still do and will continue to do. We were the pioneers of the industrial revolution. We invented the train, the telephone, the computer, the internet for example. We discovered penicillin, DNA, the laws of gravity. We have Shakepeare, Isambard Kingdom Brunel, Charles Darwin, Stephen Hawking, The Beatles, Florence Nightingale, just to name a few! Football, rugby, cricket all came from our country. Our reach and influence is global. We are not a great empire anymore and we have no desire to be but our systems of politics, law, finance are duplicated around the world. So let’s not underestimate ourselves. I have great confidence in our younger generation to continue what previous generations have done. They are bright, intelligent, skilled, energetic, creative. They and older generations have the ability to make a success of our exit from the EU. We all just need to believe in ourselves and remain calm and confident.
We have been in the EU for 43 years, not really a long time in the scheme of things.
So let’s not be afraid and let us take this challenge on and show what we can do!

Run away Bengalcat.

Quickly before you yourself realise you cannot hide your complete lack of decent rationale behind the "You're just looking for an argument," cobblers.

This is what our country is left with. That's really patriotic, that is.

Pensions: if someone leaves the UK now to go and live in a EU/EEA country and a few others with which we have reciprocal arrangments, then their state pension increases at the same rate that it would if they stayed in the UK.

Other countries, e.g. Canada (that I know of), freeze the amount paid to the time the pensioner left the UK. So although the state pension is now something like £110 a week, a person who left a number of years ago might easily only be collecting £20 a week or less. This can cause real hardship. The Govt could make an arrangement with Canada to pay the full amount, but at present they have no plans to. We don't know what the situation would be on leaving the EU - would the current rules apply or would the same situation as Canada apply?

These are the sort of legitimate worries that people have. You may say, "so what", but if they paid their contributions for their 40 years, and worked paying taxes, why shouldn't they get the full amount? You might say, "well they should stay in the UK", but what if an elderly person has gone to join family abroad, to be cared by them? The are no longer a burden on the UK as they might be if they stayed behind and needed to be in paid Local Authority care accommodation. A care home place costs considerably more than the full state pension provides.

Just a few little, 'a well, it'll all work details' that have to be considered. Which the Leave campaigners seem not to be aware of never mind given a moments thought to.

I'm sure BeenThere can speak for him/herself, but may be in the same position as some others who have worked in other EU countries and paid into their social security systems, thus building up an entitlement to a state pension in each country.

Currently you can effectively pool the pensions from all those countries and take your pension in the country where you live. Details here europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad/faq/index_en.htm

The first question on that page deals with pension rights accrued before a country joined the EU. The concern now, of course, is what will happen to these arrangements after the UK leaves.

OK, I understand the pensions concern a bit more now thanks.

Unfortunately I agree the UK will probably move to non-index state pension for non-uk residents. This has been a very big issue for many years in Oz and It's appalling

Regarding pooling of EU state pensions, I am planning on taking from multiple countries anyway (deliberate non pooling) since I have over the necessary minimum number of years to qualify in each country. This much more lucrative, particularly given revaluation of GBP, but other countries sometimes have better state pensions than UK anyway.

And yes this is a major deal and I am astonished it hasn't been addressed.

sorry, am busy but will be back

John Redwoods plan is available here:
johnredwoodsdiary.com

It's seems to use the novel tactic of putting the EU on the back foot, by saying that we are leaving, we will no longer be contributing, there will be no freedom of movement, and we will be staying in the Single Market. This puts the onus of negotiating on the EU rather than us...

That plan is... actively delusional. Jesus. Hopefully the his fellow Eurosceptics can come up with something a bit better than that, otherwise we are going to end up with a truly disastrous Brexit deal.

I can't see that working under international law.

Article 50 says “The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification."

Until the withdrawal agreement between the UK and the EU comes into force or the period of two years from the notification comes to an end, whichever is the sooner, the Treaties still apply to the UK.

So all the clauses, including freedom of movement and contributions, still apply to the UK until that point.

As I see it, what Redwood proposes amounts to breaking the terms of international treaties which UK representatives have signed. Not sure how this would go down with the international community, including any state with which the UK wants to do business.

Hopefully the his fellow Eurosceptics can come up with something a bit better than that
Who? Boris, Nigel, the Daily Mail, BNP, The Man Who Walks around Bristol Exposing Himself Whilst Laughing?
There is nothing, they know there is nothing and the sad fact is the OP can list a whole load of rhetorical shit (BTW, the UK didn't invent the Internet) as the Plan to save us all because that's the best they have.

I find it incredible arrogant, especially point 2. But then I find the whole brexit sneering at the rest of Europe pretty vile. The last few months have really opened my eyes as to why the rest of Europe hate us. The empire mentality is still alive and kicking. We're a very arrogant and aggressive nation with a superiority complex. It's embarrassing.

Hmm, that plan sounds fabulous. We keep all the benefits but stop paying and refuse to follow the rules. Sure they'll bite our hand off.

I'm off to the leisure centre to try it with my gym membership.

The rest of Europe don't hate us at all. The EU get a bit fed up with our insistence on special treatment, but generally Europeans are quite fond of us ime.

Or they were. I think they can see, as the Remainers can, the UK is self-destructing into of mire of nationalism, xenophobia, arrogance and delusion. Many other European countries have got that out of their system, apparently we have not.

Redwood has clearly no idea how the single market works if he thinks we are going to keep it without FOM and contributions.

I notice he wants to take a work permit system for EU migrants to Parliament for approval, but not Article 50, so he clearly has his priorities straight.

The calibre of this government is abysmal.

Redwood is delusional.

Quite apart from the legal ramifications, it will be fun negotiating trade agreements with partners who know that the UK will illegally renege on their internation commitments. We would be a pariah state.

Fortunately May seems to have her head screwed on. I don't like her (she's no liberal, and she has little respect for democracy) but I do think she's an intelligent politician currently playing the long game.

International, that should say. iPad has a life of its own.

Or as someone just put it on Twitter:

"John Redwood explains how he's still going to have sex with his wife against her will after he's divorced her."

It's bullshit and he knows it. It's a Tory version of Trumpism: "And they're gonna pay for it".

I don't know, like Hilary Mantel and Cromwell, Gita Sereny and Speer, I think there's a danger of reading into May positives that aren't there.

I fear she's embraced the hardcore Euroscepticism in her party from conviction rather than political tactics. I do wonder whether her Remain stance was toeing the official party line rather than a genuine view.

Clegg's description of her attempt to the manipulate the FOM suggests she's just like the rest.

On the Redwood plan, apart from the issue of the UK reneging on an international treaty, it would be illegal for the EU to allow us tariff free trade if we leave the EU, in the absence of another free trade agreement. This is because under WTO rules the EU can't offer preferential tariffs to one country and not to its other "most favourable nations" it trades with, such as the US and China. The WTO / other countries could then bring a case against the EU, so they won't do it! We, of course, would be out of the WTO and would have to reapply to join.

I was referring to full blown fascist regimes in Germany, Italy, Spain and semi-fascist in France.

The far right is on the rise for sure, but I don't think its likely to take hold of governments in countries that have already been there, done that.

Of course we will go to negotiations asserting the cake and eat it option is completely realistic. We'd be foolish not to.

No we'll just make ourselves look like twats.

Tiggy I wish I could believe that TM and the Conservatives were indulging in a bit of pre negotiation positioning but to do that effectively they should be flexing their position of power effectively (which is what negotiations are about, both sides effectively flexing their sources of power to achieve the best outcome hopefully in terms of finding the position of greatest mutual benefit, rather than destruction). What Redwood has done there is expose the degree of ignorance / arrogance / focus on right wing dogma which could well emerge as a weakness that the EU can exploit. You would expect a degree of posturing on both sides but not of the likes "oh look at the unicorn I am going to ride". Far more intimidating to the EU would be to appear to know exactly what you are talking about, but then that would not appeal half so much to the Tory right or the leavers......

I remain concerned TM is putting party and domestic politics ahead of the interests of the country and reading this about TM from Vince Cable's book is just reinforcing that

"Not all the disagreements were between the coalition parties. Although I had difficult exchanges with the home secretary Theresa May and prime minister over immigration controls on non-EU students and skilled workers, almost all Conservative colleagues and ministers agreed, at least privately, that their policies were seriously damaging to business, universities and the wider national economic interest. As a Lib Dem, I was able to speak publicly about the way the government’s claim to be “open for business” was being undermined. But I was struck by the inability of powerful Conservatives such as George Osborne, or even the prime minister, to move the home secretary an inch." We are already at a disadvantage as a result of her past misplaced priorities.......

sorry, am busy but will be back

This is becoming a familiar pattern. Leave voter-

• makes somewhat dubious claims
• is asked to discuss and justify said claims
• says Remain are all bullies just because we challenge the reality of claims
• is then asked again to answer questions in response to accusation that Remain refuse to engage in any discussion about these claims
• is then really busy

Sorry back to the the thread. Yes it is the reciprocal nature of EU pensions that I am concerned about. Til now as I understood it, I have worked in different countries but my NI has always been paid wherever. And wherever I choose to retire, say UK, my "stamp" should be fully paid up. I have no clue now how this will work. Indeed occupational pensions, the non state part, I presume I just take the hit on exchange rate depending on which country I retire in.

sorry, am busy but will be back

I am back but briefly. will be back again though tomorrow hopefully. I hope that is okay Bearbehind. I do have a life outside MN.

This is becoming a familiar pattern. Leave voter-

- makes somewhat dubious claims

That is your opinion. not a statement of fact. You dont actually specify reasons why my points are dubious.

- is asked to discuss and justify said claims

I havent got time to go through everything Ive said but dont feel I need to. I have made points I believe are valid and if you dont agree with them , then that is fine. Much have my time on this thread has been wasted having to reply to unpleasant comments. For example, the first comment from someone on this thread was "Oh p*ss off" Good start to a discussion.

- says Remain are all bullies just because we challenge the reality of claims

I didnt say Remain are all bullies. In fact, many in Remain have valid points. However, I have found it hard to deal with unpleasant and insulting comments and felt intimidated.

- is then asked again to answer questions in response to accusation that Remain refuse to engage in any discussion about these claims

I havent refused to engage. My time has been wasted though having to defend myself from unpleasant comments. I am happy to have a civilised, pleasant, respectful discussion on here.

- is then really busy

Yes, thats right. I cant spend all day on my laptop. I did say I would be back so you knew I would return at some point. am not surprised others do a run for it though

Ah you're back, MenMust. Were you going to expand on the negative effect the EU is having on your life?