Sarkozy demands border shifted to Britain

[Bookaboo]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/28/nicolas-sarkozy-demands-border-controls-for-thousands-of-migrant/

...but, if many of the migrants don't have a passport, how will they be allowed to Britain anyway? And presumably they would need a ticket for the ferry or the train.

LoveInTokyo

Of course. But if they decide that they don't want to honour an agreement that they signed up to then they, as such great lovers of democracy, can't tell the British government what to do. Nor can they push those in the jungle into the UK without being part and parcel in illegal human trafficing and illegal immigration, which, as I'm sure you understand is illegal and punishable not only by French law but also British Law.

Now I know you think that Sarkozy is a "democratic" politican but I assure you that if you look into his activites, political and non, you'll see that he wouldn't be able to find the word "democracy" in the dictionary nevermind tell you what it means.

But if they decide that they don't want to honour an agreement that they signed up to then they, as such great lovers of democracy, can't tell the British government what to do.

What do you think Brexit means, exactly? It's the UK deciding not to honour an international treaty that we signed up to. If we have the right to withdraw from our international obligations, so does France.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The referendum isn't legally binding, so it has no legal basis for implementation. So you can't abide by it "legally".

If you love democracy and legality so much you'll be fine to have it debated and voted on in parliament.

Btw I haven't made any comment about Sarkozy's integrity or otherwise as a politician.

Firstly, I'm not French (yet) and don't have the right to vote in their elections, so it's none of my damn business.

Secondly, looking at the likes of Cameron, Farage, Boris and Gove, I think people in glass houses (i.e. the whole of the UK) shouldn't throw stones.

smallfox, that is literally the topic of the dissertation I am currently writing. And as much as I'm sure amalfimamma's analysis of the law is fascinating and insightful, I'd better get off MN and finish writing the damn thing!

Also, as the UK is going to be no longer in the EU, cross border arrangements will change, legally.

See this is the thing with Brexiters, you want it all one way, it doesn't work like that.

LoveInTokyo
The UK and Ireland were given the option in the Lisbon Treaty to hold referendums on remaining in the EU or not.

They were given the option of an out, and the UK took it. Other EU countries do not have this option.

Art. 25.II of the Le Touquet agreement states that the agreement may be terminated by giving 2 years notice, so I guess we'll have to wait until 2019, at the earliest, to see what will actually happen.

Mistigri it does apply to the ferry operators. I was at a UK port when a cyclist turned up without a passport and was told by the ferry company that they faced a £2000 fine if they let someone travel without a passport. I also know of a French person who went on her honeymoon alone because her DH turned up at a French port with an out of date carte d'identité!
I travel backwards and forwards by ferry all the time and it is very strict.

^The UK and Ireland were given the option in the Lisbon Treaty to hold referendums on remaining in the EU or not.

They were given the option of an out, and the UK took it. Other EU countries do not have this option.^

This is actual nonsense.

smallfox2002

If you love democracy and legality so much you'll be fine to have it debated and voted on in parliament.

That's fine. Seeing as I am not a British Citizen (even though it is my right to be considered one), have a EU passport and live abroad.

What gets my goat is those who cannot accept democracy while playing the democracy card and acting like spoilt kids.

I'm fine for democracy, but as I said I want this debated and voted on by parliament, approved by the Lords etc.

Oh and in a democracy its fine to carry on the debate, you don't have to shut up.

LoveInTokyo

such an adult, precise and democratic answer.

Have you read the Lisbon Treaty? Would you like a link? I can link it in French if your heart so desires.................................

I'm just about to finish a master's degree in EU law, and need to get off MN so I can finish writing my dissertation on Article 50, which is due in on Thursday. Got a copy of the Treaty sitting on the table about two feet away from me. So thanks, but no thanks.

smallfox2002

Oh and in a democracy its fine to carry on the debate, you don't have to shut up.

I don't think I told anyone to shut up. Or tried to make them. I enjoy a good debate, I don't enjoy a bun fight where someone who uses words like democracy and rights try to force their opinions down my throat while assuming I supported one or the other camp without actually knowing or taking the time to ask which camp I supported.

I gave an opinion on a man, a man who is as dirty and corrupt as they come and got labelled because of it. Wrongly labelled I might add

LoveInTokyo

Good luck in that. -you'll need it if your comments are anything to go by-

Well thanks to my exam results I am just on the cusp of a distinction, so I'll accept your luck and best wishes with grateful thanks in the hope that it will help get me over the line.

And now I really do need to go and write.

Have a nice day.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-freedom-of-movement-eu-referendum-uk-france-border-french-presidential-election-alain-juppe-a7118511.html

speaking to the Financial Times, Mr Juppé, who is leading in opinion polls, said: “The logic requires that border controls take place on British soil.” “We must move the border back to where it belongs,” he added.

Looks like Juppe seems also in favour of scrapping the agreement too, then. Never mind, I'm sure that our former Home Secretary - responsible of course for immigration from 2010 to 2016 and now our great Prime Minister - has this all managed operationally, financially and diplomatically (just like Brexit) so no worries there.

But, even with a 2 year official notice period on Le Toquet...and say this with true love in my heart for the French culture....I fear that immediately notice is given, the French may police Calais a little less rigorously, shall we say. Permitting the UK to "take back control" with semi-immediate effect. Fantastic.

I travel backwards and forwards by ferry all the time and it is very strict

We use the ferries a fair bit (I live in France) and tbh I would say it's never been particularly strict before this year. Passport controls have always been pretty cursory until the very recent past. We travelled through Dunkirk a couple of weeks ago and were amazed at how long it took compared to previous occasions (three separate passport checks, with the UK border control check taking over 5 minutes per car).

If the French decide to abandon the Le Touquet agreement I guess the big issue will become whether, and how, tight security at the ports and Eurotunnel is maintained. Will Eurostar and the ferry operators have to shoulder the cost, instead of the UK and French governments?

Before juxtaposed controls, Waterloo (then the Eurostar terminal) was one of the major points of entry for asylum seekers, so I think that regardless of what actions are taken by ferry operators and Eurostar, one would have to expect a dramatic increase in asylum claims at Dover and St Pancras.

Looks like Juppe seems also in favour of scrapping the agreement too, then.

The question now is whether any of the presidential candidates will support maintaining juxtaposed controls. This is why I now think that it is probable, rather than possible, that the border will move back to Dover.

"Great. I wish you all the very best.
( we won't die without you )"

We might if they are doctors...or medical researchers, or agricultural scientists etc.

Firstly, this is not a Brexit isue. The agreement is being challenged by the growth of the calais camp and French anti-immigration feeling.
AFAIK, the French do not police the border in Calais, but allow the British to. This prevents anyone entering the tunnel without passport checks. If this was stopped, people could and would walk through the tunnel and then claim immigration in Dover. This is different for the ferry ports, as if they are not allowed on the boat, they find it harder to cross. Some do try boats or hiding in lorries and get into the UK.

Sorry claim asylum not immigration.

From the Independent article I liked to a few posts up:

Mr Ricketts [former UK ambassador to France and former national security advisor to Mr Cameron] said earlier this year that the French government was using up significant political capital and police resources in its operation in Calais and that opposition parties were keen to pull out of the agreement.

“This treaty is a bilateral treaty but it was made in a multilateral context where Britain and France are working together across a whole range of issues,” he told BBC Radio 4.

“If the context changed and Britain made a major decision to leave the EU I think it’s highly likely France would review its position too… there’s a lot of pressure already, if you look at the main opposition party in France, Les Republicains, they’re already openly calling for that treaty [to be scrapped].”

*linked to

Mistigri I live in France too. The Ouistreham and Dieppe routes (where the UK border is obviously not in France) have always checked.
Calais has not been as strict until this year, I agree, especially not going from UK to France. Now, as you say, extremely thorough - and slow.
It feels as if it has gone back to pre EU days. Maybe we will get the chalk marks back?