So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

[HyacinthFuckit]

Deeply reassuring carol, but one wonders why you're framing this in the context of restarting violence at this point?

[Peregrina]

I also see very little desire on either side to re-start violence.
May I suggest that you read today's news

[SapphireStrange]

carol, nothing can be said to have fallen flat because we haven't even started the Brexit process yet.

[MangoMoon]

I am still unclear as to why the Good Friday Agreement will be 'ripped up' because of the Leave vote.
The peace agreement is between ROI, NI & Westminster.

[Peregrina]

Because it's dependent on both parts of Ireland being in the EU. So if one part is no longer in, how can the GFA be carried out?

[caroldecker]

I mention violence because the OP is concerned about it.
^You mean you wilfully miss the bit that bit where we are, might be back to violence and murder. With the army on the streets.
Oh ok.
That minor detail.
Its ok though, as its not England and you don't have to live with it.
Except if someone decides to bomb your town next time.^

I said little interest in resuming violence, not none - and not convinced he started with the Brexit vote.

no idea why GFA is dependent on both countries being in the EU - please reference the issue.

[MangoMoon]

I think it's to do with the hard border?
Also the EU has funded lots of initiatives & provided neutral places for discussions & negotiations.
Regardless, the Good Friday Agreement is not wholly dependant on both countries remaining part of the EU.

There could be no border & free movement within Ireland & passport controls on mainland Britain, for example.

Over the upcoming years it is up to the various power sharing committees to come to agreement over the way forward & then once they have clear plans they may feel the time is right for a vote on re-unification of North & South.

[crazycatguy]

I figure we'll just blame immigrants for the whole thing and claim the GFA was a left wing Marxist conspiracy. We will then claim that the Turkish will be in control and divert loads of money from the NHS.

This has been a party political broadcast on behalf of anyone who didn't care much about evidence.

[Peregrina]

There could be no border & free movement within Ireland & passport controls on mainland Britain, for example.

That would effectively a micro Schengen agreement between the two parts of Ireland. It would be a different agreement which had to be negotiated, because the status quo had changed, and it would depend on how willing each party was to co-operate.

I remember when my firm relocated to 150 miles away. The status quo had changed and there was no 'Do nothing' option. Either move, or change jobs were the obvious options. Gradually other options became clear: either get a transfer to a different department, or arrange to work at home, or arrange a weekly commute, or take early retirement/redundancy. All of which required negotiation and willingness to accommodate people.

[caroldecker]

There are passport/identification controls with mainland britain, so no change.

[caroldecker]

In reality, free movement does not mean EU residents cannot travle to the UK visa free, more they cannot work/claim benefits. Both those require an NI number, so no issue with movement across the border, or even into mainland UK.

[Peregrina]

There are passport/identification controls with mainland britain, so no change.

As I pointed out in some links above, officially not. There are rules made by airlines and ferry companies, about preferring identity documents, and as I pointed out, this could be a utility bill, or for a child a birth certificate. Try getting into any other country with your electricity bill, or birth certificate.

[HyacinthFuckit]

Carol you said that you do not see, in the present tense, any desire to escalate violence. We'll leave aside for the moment the question of whether you know enough about NI or spend sufficient time to be aware of any such desires if they did exist, and focus on the fact that you dismissed a fear about problems building up over the next few years because of what you think is happening today. You either swerved the question or didn't understand it.

As for Good Friday, this is all over the internet so a bit of research yourself wouldn't have killed you, but for a start it references both the UK and Ireland being in the EU. That's not to say this couldn't possibly be amended, fun as NI negotiations are, but it's a pretty important issue not to be aware of. And more generally, it does potentially threaten the peace settlement. That doesn't mean it will definitely destroy it, but do you really not see that the imposition of a Brexit NI doesn't want, particularly one driven by the English, would make reunification look more attractive to more of the population? What exists at the moment is a more fragile peace than some think. How do you think the hardline loyalists would react to a stronger united Ireland movement? Peacefully and democratically?

And yes, as others have pointed out, there's what to do about the border. People can now move freely between NI and the Republic, without ID. I've done it myself. A 'hard border', with checkpoints, is not wanted by the people living in the border regions and would make life more difficult. In a lot of places, there isn't even a sign that you're going from one country to the other. You pick it up when the look of the road signs changes. This lack of a hard border is something that's been quite important in the peace and healing process. You can read a lot about it if you bother. But if the UK did leave the EU to the extent that we no longer had freedom of movement, we'd be left with either a hard/er border, or a situation where any EEA national (and, more pertinently for some, their non-EEA relatives who don't have to prove anything other than their relationship to a working EEA national) could waltz into the UK unnoticed whenever they felt like it. Given that a lot of Leave voters cited concern about immigration, particularly unskilled immigration, refusal to even consider this possibility looks woefully naive. Personally I think we'll be keeping freedom of movement so it won't arise, but if we weren't, it would.

[MangoMoon]

Part of the GFA is the acknowledgement that the people of NI can choose to identify as wholly Irish, wholly NI or British and this will be respected and supported - why does this need to change just because we've left the EU?

Why can a micro Schengen Agreement not be achieved either?
The difference with Ireland compared with the rest of UK is that it is physically separated.
If the appetite of the people of Ireland (North & South) is to carry on with no border then this has to be respected if we don't want to go backwards (general we, I'm not from Ireland but include all of UK & Ireland in this).

Ireland is completely unique and needs to be treated separately to the rest of UK when Brexit is framed - a big thrust of GFA is that all parties are respected & included in all decisions.

Also, if there is sufficient will for the people of Ireland (North & South) to re-unify, then this must also be respected (again, part of GFA), so if Brexit means that people prefer the idea of being in the EU to being part of UK then they can vote that way and leave UK.

I would not be surprised if NI will be given another vote when there is a tangible plan laid out, to decide if unification & EU is now wanted more than being part of UK & out of EU.


If randoms on the Internet can work that out, then I'd certainly hope that the people in charge of managing this whole situation can.

[HyacinthFuckit]

In reality, free movement does not mean EU residents cannot travle to the UK visa free, more they cannot work/claim benefits. Both those require an NI number, so no issue with movement across the border, or even into mainland UK.

Hahahahahahahahaha.

You reckon everyone working in the UK has an NI no, then?

[MeMySonandl]

Sometimes I think that England should be taught a lesson by splitting the Kingdom (yeah... I know...) but really sometimes it looks like the issues and will of NI and Scotland are of no importance to the average England dweller. "Out of sight, out of mind..." and all that (even before Brexit).

[HyacinthFuckit]

If the appetite of the people of Ireland (North & South) is to carry on with no border then this has to be respected if we don't want to go backwards (general we, I'm not from Ireland but include all of UK & Ireland in this).

I agree entirely. It would be an outrage for a hard border to be forced on the Irish, both sides, because of the votes cast in England and Wales. And as I've said, I don't think the issue will arise because I suspect we'll be keeping freedom of movement. However, if we didn't, you would have a collision course between the desires of the people of the island of Ireland on one side and the UK's wish to control her borders. Anyone in Ireland under EU law, which as I pointed out in a different thread yesterday includes lots of non-EEA citizens, would be free to enter the UK as they wished. Given that we know a significant bloc of Leave voters, at the very least, voted because they thought their choice would help us control our borders, clearly failure to deliver on this would be a problem. It would be very optimistic to think there'd be no calls for a hard border in this scenario.

Also, if there is sufficient will for the people of Ireland (North & South) to re-unify, then this must also be respected (again, part of GFA), so if Brexit means that people prefer the idea of being in the EU to being part of UK then they can vote that way and leave UK.

Indeed they can, but the problem is with the unrest this would be likely to cause. Like it or not, NI is a special case and even the concept of a reunification referendum is threatening to some people there.

[sashh]

So, since about 2009, border controls have existed between the Island of Ireland and mainland UK, with travellers from both NI and Ireland required to have identity/passports when travelling. the border between NI and Ireland has not required ID/passports since it started.
Not sure why there is now an issue with people.

Have you seen pictures of the Calais Jungle? People would be able to travel to Ireland legitimately and then enter the UK by walking down a road or crossing a field.

British and Irish citizens do not need a passport to travel by ferry between the countries, technically other nationalities do, but there isn't (I believe) any passport check so a foot passenger can just get on with their ticket and travel.

[Peregrina]

There are passport/identification controls with mainland britain, so no change.

Drawing up or amending a Treaty requires much more insight than vague ideas of what the status quo is.

You have to produce photo ID to fly between London and Scotland, at least with EasyJet you do. Yet Scotland isn't independent. Not everyone has photo ID - if you don't have a passport and don't drive, you can be a bit limited. There was an absolute furore when the subject of introducing Identity Cards was proposed and the matter was dropped.

[Peregrina]

no idea why GFA is dependent on both countries being in the EU - please reference the issue.

Try this:

AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND

The British and Irish Governments:
.......
Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their
peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly
neighbours and as partners in the European Union;

........
Have agreed as follows:

Reference to the part which that came from here on page 13

So, no longer partners in the EU - the agreement can't stand as written and needs revision.

[HyacinthFuckit]

Quite, peregrina. It is astonishing that someone could make a statement like 'ideally NI will leave with the rest of the UK WITHOUT ANY EFFECT ON THE AGREEMENT'. Which is what carol said a few posts back. The most cursory glance would make very clear that this is impossible.

And this is the reason for at least some of the Leave votes in NI. Not all by any means, but there are people there who don't want GFA to stand. This is basic, very basic!

[RedToothBrush]

I am still unclear as to why the Good Friday Agreement will be 'ripped up' because of the Leave vote.
The peace agreement is between ROI, NI & Westminster.

Well, the point was nothing would be imposed by Westminster than Dublin didn't agree with - it was all either localised decisions made in Stormont OR came from the EU so therefore was agreed to by Dublin by default.

We already have talk of the British Bill of Rights creeping in to replace the Human Rights Act in parallel with Brexit.

This means that anyone living in NI would be subject to laws imposed by Westminster. Irish citizens living in NI would have different rights to those living in Ireland.

If you take into context that Irish Catholics have been treated pretty badly by British law over the years and human rights have been somewhat curtailed at times, its pretty alarming to hear that a) Brexit is being imposed against the wishes of the local population despite the fact that the Good Friday Agreement is supposed to prevent huge decisions not taken in parallel with Dublin b) that this could mean Human Rights which are underpinned by the GFA are not only at risk from the agreement going but the government is actively talking of replacing them with a British Bill of Rights - therefore being a second things imposed by Westminster - a government they don't recognise.

The issue is that the Good Friday Agreement was already a compromise by Irish Republican. This is now being treated as if it was meaningless and the government are going to impose things that go far further than they ever would have agreed.

In terms of law, precedents are the big thing - so imposing one thing leads to another, and another and another. And they are already talking about the one that perhaps is the one that protects citizens of both nationalities equally and is therefore very cherished.

For someone who is Irish Catholic the idea that this might lead to them being disadvantaged or second class citizens who do not have to be listened to is one that history has held true through treatment by the Westminster government.

And Brexit, really is doing exactly the same thing.

So guess how its all viewed?

Its not going to go well.

As for Ireland. They simply can not have a bilateral agreement on many of the key issues - most notably trade - because they are not able to make bilateral agreements that only apply to them as an EU member. They have to go through the EU and the other 26 members have to agree to trade deals and they have to be equal for all members.

In terms of freedom of movement, if the UK are talking about ending it, then EU nationals in Ireland would be subject to it - and there could be issues over work or if for example you are an Irish citizen living in the NI, and meet a partner in the south who is from the EU. You would have the same rights as an Irish citizen living in the South married to an EU national. (see where it starts to get complex).

[purplevase4]

Its ok though, as its not England and you don't have to live with it

but the many Leave voters in NI do. So what do they think and why did they vote to leave if it's such an issue?

The CTA existed before either Ireland or the UK were in the EEC/EC/EU. It can continue to exist. I voted to Remain but all the scaremongering about a hard border is just that. There are plenty of anomalies in the EU around borders etc - this would be just one more. The CTA can continue.

[Peregrina]

And before someone starts to say, 'movement across an EU/non-EU border works for Switzerland and Norway', both have agreed to freedom of movement for EU citizens, and both are in the Schengen area.

I agree, Switzerland has had a referendum wishing to restrict FOM and right now Switzerland and the EU have a big problem over it.

[MangoMoon]

Everything re not wanting to be governed by a ruling body you don't recognise or want to be ruled by applies to people across the UK wrt the EU though.

You point out the historical context of people violently opposing unrecognised rule in NI - this is exactly what could happen if Britain is forced to remain in the EU against the majority referendum vote.

Yes, Ireland is a fragile & unique situation and this is surely being discussed at length & addressed by all parties involved; but as history demonstrates, to force any country into unrecognised control is dangerous - this includes Scotland, England & Wales.
The coming years will see a framework emerge for brexit, presumably that would be the point at which an independence vote for Scotland & NI would be prudent?
That is, once there is a tangible choice between remaining part of a UK outside EU rule or not.