LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

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The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/21/iain-duncan-smith-brexit-talks-begin-as-soon-as-possible?CMP=twt_gu

Oh my. IDS in the Observer today:

“Tired of handing over billions of their hard-earned money to the wasteful EU bureaucrats, it [the referendum result] was an order from the British people to Britain’s ruling elite – an order to ‘take back control’. That, simply put, means control of our borders, our trade arrangements, our money and our laws,” he wrote.

“What they didn’t vote for was EU-lite, or for their government to engage in negotiations where we bend the knee to Brussels and beg for some concessions whilst remaining in a customs union all the while subject to European law.”

“After all, in economic terms there is a strong case to leave the single market,”

1. We are going to hand over our hard earned cash to wasteful British bureaucrats
2. He's doing exactly what I point out the danger is; he's making an interpretation of what people voted FOR.
3. He's wording it as if it was on the ballot paper as a tick sheet of things you voted for and he's just responding to that which is REALLY not the case
4. This is in complete contrast to the Tory Manifesto which many leave voters would think would go hand in hand with their referendum pledge to 'protect British interests in the Single Market' and a direct betrayal of what many voters would have thought they were voting FOR.

See how the goal posts are being moved? See how important it is to make your voice known about what you DID vote for.

IDS being a Tory who supported TTIP including the NHS.

IDS is a very good example of the problem described in the Guardian linked by Kaija:

Senior UK diplomats have been shocked by how little leading Tories in government – including Johnson – understand about the workings of the EU and its single market.

“It is staggering,” said one top UK official. “They have not even got to base one in terms of knowledge.” Charles Grant, director of the Centre for European Reform in London, says some “very senior” people in the UK government are deeply ignorant about the single market, and adds that only now are the Brexit-backers beginning to grasp the difficulty of what faces them.

(Apart from IDS clearly who still has no clue).

Remember IDS isn't in the government so he can shout all he likes but what he says isn't necessarily what is going to happen.

The senior diplomats were discussing hose in the governmentop who are dealing with this, so I'd imagine Davis, Johnson and Fox are targets of their derision.

IDS was in government and one of the leaders of the out campaignow, although not named here, he is anot example of the kind of fuck knuckle that got us here in the first place. No idea what he was talking about.

Loved that Fox flew to the states to discuss deals and was told that nothing would be discussed till the relationship with the EU was sorted. That's a prime example of the situation

Depends how you define government, he's in the ruling party, he's not in cabinet.

He'll be one of the MPs pressing for hard Brexit - not that he has power but he can make a noise.

All of those hard Brexiteer bunch seem oblivious to the reality of EU functioning, single market and trade.

There is just over a month to the Conservative Party conference. This is the one where the swivle eyed loons try and take over like the Tea Party tried to take over the Republicans prior to Trump staging his Coup d'état.

It will be very interesting to see the state of the party.

I think for me this sums up the paradox of the Brexit vote:

From Twitter:

Condorcet paradox:

• Majority prefer Brexit to EU
• Majority prefer EEA to hard Brexit
• Majority prefer EU to EEA

From YouGov poll: twitter.com/yougov/status/766600234352971776

I had to look up Condorcet paradox, which means:
This is paradoxical, because it means that majority wishes can be in conflict with each other. When this occurs, it is because the conflicting majorities are each made up of different groups of individuals.
Or because I'm a remainer it basically means many leave voters triggered the exit button really irresponsibly with---- no real idea of the details of what the future structure of the U.K. Outside of the EU would be, whether it would be positive for us or be better than what we have now.

Despite asking many times no one on this thread has persuaded me otherwise and that makes me really sad and really angry.

TooTired, I didn't know about that. But I'm not surprised and its rather what I suspected.

This is why its massively important to establish what we DO want.

A dislike of the EU does not mean we like the other options more. It just means we dislike the EU.

2) He's doing exactly what I point out the danger is; he's making an interpretation of what people voted FOR.

I still remember IDS on referendum night getting all excited because "high turnout in the council estates".

I couldn't remember who it was who was excited about the high turnout in the council estates. It has to be remembered that it was the Tory voters of the south who swung it for Brexit. I doubt whether all that many on council estates are Tories. I suspect they were voting against austerity as much as anything.

People on council estates were traditionally Labour, the last 10 years however have seen a steady shift towards UKIP.

People on council estates were traditionally Labour, the last 10 years however have seen a steady shift towards UKIP.

It's certainly a fear, but how much evidence is there to back up that statement? We have had four Parliamentary by-elections where Labour have done well. We have had a number of council by elections which are not quite as typical as GE votes, but Labour seems to be holding up in the seats it has contested. Some Tory seats have seen huge swings to the LDs even when the Tories have hung on, and apart from a couple of seats in Thanet, where UKIP have just won a couple of by-elections, on the whole UKIP have been performing badly. Don't forget that the only UKIP MP Carswell, was a Tory, not Labour.

t's certainly a fear, but how much evidence is there to back up that statement?

Nigel Farage, although not part of the official leave team, got us out of the EU. People listened to him, they agreed with him - they may not vote UKIP in elections ( they're seen as a single issue party ) but Farage had massive influence over millions of people.

Exactly. It's the traditional labour voters who have turned to UKIP, so all the remainers on here who vote labour, you have to look at your own party & work out where you went wrong, ( although I can tell you in one sentence ) UKIP are just the Tories after 5 vodkas, so not as many defected.

Immigration is the issue for those voters. Nothing else. And as pointed out repeatedly, immigration has been wrongly blamed for all the ills of the nation.

Sadly people man poor areas with low.immigration voting out because they feel that EU immigration is the source of their problems swung this vote.

Life isn't going to get better for them outside of he EU.

It's funny, when you don't want to be identified with this vote the retainers are told that they tar everyone with the same brush, when you do its fine for you to day it.

I agree, smallfox. Yes, wealthy retired Tories in the south-east voted Leave in droves; but everyone expected them too.

What took Cameron by surprise was the disillusioned ex-Labour, low-paid or unemployed, ex-industrial areas protest vote.

In other words, the vote from people in conditions that successive governments up to and including his own had created.

He really showed a serious lack of self-awareness and imagination on this.

In looking at the reasons for Leave's win I don't think we should underestimate Arron Banks with his £6 million or so contribution, his US style post-factual campaign and his use of social media. It's not just the voice of the people here, any more than a high volume of Coca Cola sales demonstrates that what people really want is in life is to drink fizzy brown sugar water.

What people like Arron Banks want out of this might be the really interesting question just now.

tiggy, I can well 'imagine that the Tories know care even less'. I still find it worthy of commenting on though.

I'm sick and tired of the sovereignty thing. The 'mechanism by which rules are made' does not require the UK to relinquish power or input. The EU does not make rules and decide things; it is a treaty organisation made up of ELECTED representatives (and, yes, some civil servants; but mainly seconded from member states, and fewer in number than the number employed domestically in many member states).

These are the people who make the rules. The UK votes on the winning side between about 80 and 90% of the time. We are (have been) extremely influential in the EU.

So 49 percent is a big enough majority for you to say that it is important?