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Brexit

Westminstenders Continues. Boris is having a bad week. Corbyn resists. Its gonna be a long summer.

979 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2016 16:34

THE BREXIT FALLOUT CONTINUES - THREAD ELEVEN

The dust is beginning to settle and the storm has abated. At least for the moment. The summer is about to start, and so there may be a break in proceeding.

May has had quite a first week both here and abroad.

The ground has not stopped shaking from the political ripples abroad. Made PM on Weds, Nice on Thursday and a failed coup in Turkey on Friday. The political landscape has changed once again.

At home she first cleared out the Govians and called for loyalty. She channelled the ghost of Maggie at the despatch box. She started the process of trying to make friends with Scots, Germans and the French. She is apparently now Merkel's bestie. Sturgeon is already ousted from that position after just days.

Boris, meanwhile has been rinsed by everyone he speaks to because of what he's said in the past. He's also given up his chickfeed job. Oh the hardship.

Now he looking like he's starting to regret deciding to play with the grown up. He's been trying - and it would seem, largely failing - at sucking up to the Americans. There's still no apology, but he has admitted that he has a list that is so long that he's lost track of what he needs to apologise for. I bet he's wishing for his playmates, Dave and George to come back.

Otherwise life carries on as normal, well this alternate new version of normal, with parliament breaking for the summer today. Don't worry the Martian landing is scheduled for a week Tuesday.

UKIP's polling seems to have dropped back post referendum, and things have gone rather quiet. Wolfe, Etheridge, Duffy and Arnott are all standing (Who? When did that happen? Yeah quite. Without Farage they disappeared). They plan to reform and make an assault on seats in the Labour heartlands of the provisional NW, Midlands and NE at the next general election. Hustings in August, new leader announced Sept 15th. Looks of thinly and not so thinly veiled racism to look forward to there then. The Daily Mail best make sure it upgrades its servers in time.

The Labour contest grinds on like a war of attrition. Stalking horse Angela fell at the first fence as Owen Smith (that's the MP not the journalist everyone including the media!) wins the dream unity candidate ticket for an apparent hiding to nothing against the steely stubbornness of Corbyn. Everyone with a pulse is starting to loose the will to live with it all.

The Lib Dems, have a Spokesman for Remain. Old Cleggy's back! Otherwise they seem to have been trying to do a deluded impression of the opposition party. Though with 8 MPs they aren't doing much better or worse than Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet atm.

The Green are having a leadership battle too. It must be very civilised - I've heard not a word about it. Lucas tried to get a vote about PR though the Commons. It failed. Again.

There also is a cross party idea to set up a new iniative of a progressive movement to champion Europe, which seems to be gaining some traction. It may also double as a support group for anyone who thinks the world has gone a bit nuts lately at this rate.

The SNP are pissed off, as they vow differently on everything and once again they feel that Trident has been imposed on them. Sturgeon had a good meeting with May though, and apparently the Union must remain and Scotland holds the key to the future. Though we don't know the key to which door that is - Braveheart or Brave New World.

The Republic of Ireland is making noises about a referendum about Irish Unity, but beyond that nothing about NI has really been on the radar. May is supposed to go visiting soon.

And the Welsh? Baaaaa who cares about the welsh? They made the mistake of voting Leave as well as the English and now have been forgotten, consigned to political irrelevance forever.

Article 50 has been pushed back officially until the New Year, with a first legal hearing on how to activate it due no sooner than the 3rd week in October. Leaving the EU legally will now be no earlier than 2019.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2685902-Westminstenders-Contines-Boris-outmaneovered-everyone-Now-War-and-Peace?pg=1 Previous Thread TEN

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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TheBathroomSink · 04/08/2016 09:18

I can't imagine any of this will be resolved by October! Labour and ukip should both have new leaders they still hate, May will be out of her honeymoon period, and Boris is bound to have done something stupid by then. Technically, I think this is a news cycle that doesn't have an end point!

GlassCircles · 04/08/2016 09:20

Great thread, have been lurking on and off for a while :)

Sorry if this has already been posted but couldn't spot it if it has, I thought it was an interesting analysis of Corbyn fandom from Helen Lewis:

www.newstatesman.com/2016/08/explaining-love-jeremy-corbyn

Oh and agree re Spitting Image and HIGNFY - what a tragically wasted opportunity!

howabout · 04/08/2016 10:03

I am no supporter of the SNP but I do tend to vote for them domestically. Helen Lewis has me all wrong.

I couldn't vote Labour in the last Scottish elections, May 2016, because they proposed introducing a 1% increase to basic rate tax without considering the impact on recipients of tax credits - made the Scottish Labour support for JC's opposition to tax credit cuts sound pretty hollow. The 50% tax rate is not opposed by the SNP, but given most of the few who would pay it in Scotland already have a pied a terre in London it would be completely fanciful to expect them not to swap tax residence if it were not UK wide.

Scottish Labour has a constitutional problem and continuing support for the Union just looks like futile attempts at self preservation. They need a grown up conversation about Federalism. Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan are natural allies and they should all have their thinking caps on. Then they need to start working with the SNP rather than against them - the Greens look likely to overtake them in Scotland on current performance.

Even Reform Scotland, the right wing Scottish think tank, is looking at constitutional change and radical approaches to welfare like basic income.

reformscotland.com/2016/03/a-basic-income/

That is my tuppenceworth on Scotland but I admit to getting bored with the article by about point 4.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2016 12:05

Jeremy Corbyn's 10 pledges unveiled.
www.jeremyforlabour.com/10_pledges
He's pledging a National Education Service and million new houses in the next five years, including 500,000 council properties amongst other things.

Jim Waterson ‏@jimwaterson
Corbyn unhappy with journalists for asking questions about his electability rather than his policies.
Corbyn on his leadership campaign: "This is preparation for a general election and we can win that general election."

Arj Singh ‏@singharj
Corbyn says the leadership contest may have damaged Labour's support from voters "temporarily"
Corbyn says Labour will transform Britain "physically, socially and morally"
Corbyn says he would protect triple lock on pensions
Buses outside London should be "at least as good or better" than the capital's, Corbyn says

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton
Corbyn says he will pay for £500bn fund and other pledges by "expanding the economy" and reducing tax avoidance.

Corbyn makes it sound so easy.

www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2016/aug/04/improve-public-services-solution-people-control?CMP=twt_gu
Consensus not Party political approach to public services.
by Peter Housden the former permanent secretary of the Scottish government from June 2010 to June 2015 (Its pretty Corbynistic in tone tbh)

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/why-any-post-brexit-migration-deal-must-safeguard-youth-mobility/
LSE On why we must safeguard youth mobility overseas.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-cameron-could-hauled-before-8558271
David Cameron's 'Crony' list could see him face questioning by MPs.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-36966594
Will Brexit redefine our relationship with China? This article apparently has attracted a degree of controversy. I'm not entirely sure why.

www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/04/cyberwar-not-coming-to-the-us-is-already-here-dnc-hacks?CMP=twt_gu
Cyber war not coming to the US. Its already here.
Its very interesting, I think there is an important concern about our future and how we will need to approach it. The public sector in this country simply does not pay enough to attract the best programmers. It is an area we can not get enough people in full stop, so we outsource huge amounts to India and other parts of the EU (including Eastern Europe). Don't get me started on how badly this is taught in education...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-split-leadership-election-owen-smith-jeremy-corbyn-john-mcdonnell-a7171326.html
McDonnell claims that Owen Smith is blackmailing the party with the possibility of a split.

www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/what-percent-blairite-are-you?utm_term=.gkwk6AM2b&bftwuk#.sbl8PdL79
Quiz: How much of a Blairite are you? (I'm 69%)

Offical Journal of the EU.
3) Although no notification has as yet been received under article 50 TEU from its government, a Member State has made it known publicly that it will withdraw from the Union. The order of presidencies of the Council should be amended to take account of that circumstance, without prejudice to the rights and obligations of that Member State.
eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2016.208.01.0042.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2016:208:TOC
This is now our EU legal position. I'm not entirely such what it actually means but it reads to me that its sort of bypassing a50 from the look of it.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2016/08/guide-europe-s-key-eurosceptic-parties-and-how-successful-they-are
Guide to Eurosceptic Parties throughout the EU. It includes some stuff on the Italian 'Five Star' Movement which Farage looks up to.

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-clinton-republicans-idUSKCN10F10U?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social
Clinton's Republican Donors

And as expected, the BoE have just cut interest rates to 0.25%. And 60bn QE restarted.

OP posts:
whatwouldrondo · 04/08/2016 12:28

The Carrie Grace article is very good, as always - one of the few knowledgable journalists reporting on China.

Chalalala · 04/08/2016 12:40

I'm 57% Blairite... probably still enough to get me tarred and feathered at a Corbyn rally.

I feel the cat question hurt me. I picked Palmerston, and I feel that was the wrong choice, although I can pinpoint why.

howabout · 04/08/2016 13:06

I'm 8% Blairite and I think that may only have happened because of the question about how I would feel about being called a Tory. Gladstone is my cat choice Smile

InShockReally · 04/08/2016 13:12

Had to take a step away from the threads for a while as was getting a bit anxious. Came back to see what you'd all make of the Bank of England's announcement and have clearly missed loads! Will have to spend tonight catching up...

Izlet · 04/08/2016 13:26

The 5 Star lot in Italy are a worrying bunch of loons. They started off with the right principles - an end to corruption and accountability for politicians and parties, at a time when people stood for parliament to avoid going to jail (ie. Most of Berlusconi's friends and acquaintances) but they have since transformed into a rabble of disgruntled plumbers controlled by their choleric leader Beppe Grillo with a iron fist. Ironically Grillo refuses to stand for election himself but he guides everybody from behind the scenes and any rebellions within the party are out down and the rebels swiftly expelled.

They started off on a progressive ticket, pro environment, pro LGBT rights, anti Vatican involvement in Italian politics etc., but since then they have changed course and on some points appear to have become super conservative. They abstained from the vote on same sex unions and voted against stepchild adoption by same sex couples. They have since veered further right and are now a worrying force, not least because many of their MPs are inexperienced and not always very bright (a bit like the ukip) and just as guilty of cronyism as the people they unseated.

Their inexperience is beginning to show. The new mayor of Rome Raggi has already pissed off a lot of people and some of her choices have caused concern - the latest is her choice of appointment for Rome waste services. That said, the city had been rocked by a series of scandals and the coffers are empty so it is a huge mess and a challenge for any new mayor, but what was needed was a safe pair of hands and not an enthusiastic amateur.

The only policy I agree with is their quest to get the Catholic church to pay their taxes - the church owns huges swathes of land and property in prime real estate areas and is exempt from property tax. Not just churches, but hotels, hospitals, book shops, restaurants etc. in the centre of Rome and other major cities. All it takes to be exempt is to hold a mass on the premises once a year and as a place of worship no tax is due. Shocking! It costs the Italian state billions in lost revenue. The city of Rome even supplies water to the Vatican for free! Still, the M5S say that now but will probably do a U turn at the last minute like everyone else does.

howabout · 04/08/2016 13:27

Striking how much of Corbyn's 10 point plan is already being addressed in Scotland. Speaks to my earlier objections to the Helen Lewis article

1 Secure housing - end of right to buy and building social and affordable housing
2 Integrate health and social care - central manifesto pledge for SNP
3 National education - tuition free in Scottish Unis and very little school selection, lots of thinking going on re closing the attainment gap
4 Foreign policy - Scotland already aligned with this - also see today's reports on Scotland's integration of Syrian refugees
5 Environmental - report this week showing Scotland close to top of table for meeting targets
6 Democracy in our economy - all Scottish parties agreed on protecting council services and looking at reforming Council tax and also things like reintegrating transport
7 wealth generation - SNP anti-austerity pledge from 2015
8 employment rights - Scotland has had pledges on Living Wage and has been progressing this agenda since before 2015
9 income inequality - progressive taxation is very much on the agenda in Holyrood
10 social prejudice and injustice - new commission looking at how best to implement devolution of welfare talking about dropping the "benefits" tag, cross party agreement for increasing carers allowance, different approach to PIP

prettybird · 04/08/2016 13:29

It's interesting that a basic/universal income (as opposed to "credit") is starting to gain traction from across the political spectrum. I first read about it a couple of years ago and it was perceived then as a loony, pie-in-the-sky lefty idea. It made sense to me - but I did wonder that the initial expense of getting it off the ground would mean that it never be perceived as practical - especially with both the mainstream WM Parties accepting "austerity" as a given (the only difference being to what degree)

The Housden article on consensus reminds me of an article I co-wrote with my fellow participants in the "Executive Development Programme" (NHS managers who'd been brought in from industry) in 1992(ish) for the Health Service Journal on "Are Partnership and Competition Compatible?" We argued that it was but the prevailing view in the NHS at the time (the Purchaser/Provider split) was that "competition" = screwing your supplier as tight as possible and/or "getting one over" your purchaser. Our view, as supposed "high fliers" () attracted in from industry (because we believed in the NHS - interestingly, although it was an English scheme, we were all Scottish or Scottish University educated) was that good business practice was finding mutual benefit - there is no point screwing your supplier of specialist widgets if your supplier then goes bankrupt (Malcolm McDonald's definition of marketing talks about the process of identifying mutual benefit and that both parties need to do so "at a profit"). Given that we did have a common objective of the "Health of the Nation" (a paper that also came out at about that time), in theory it shouldn't have been too difficult. Unfortunately, the government had encouraged a culture of "screwing the supplier"/distrust rather than one of cooperation.

Nothing much has changed in the last 20 years Sad

Izlet · 04/08/2016 13:38

Meant to add wrt the referendum, a straight in/out referendum UK style would apparently be unconstitutional as joe public doesn't have the right to vote on subjects of certain economic/political gravity, so I do wonder how they'll get the euro vote one through as that would create a shitstorm for the Italian economy. There isn't really much appetite for it at present as the Italians have seen the shitstorm post the Brexit vote, and that's before anything has actually been triggered. The Italian banks and the economy in general would never withstand a return to the lira, the exchange rate would be something insane like 20,000 lira to the € (original exchange was approx 2000 lira to 1€) and life would get a lot harder for people while we wait for the exports to pick up.

I don't think it will happen, Mario Draghi would probably have a word and nip it in the bud if it looked close to happening.

whatwouldrondo · 04/08/2016 13:49

prettybird I was involved, working for a FTSE 100 company thirty years ago, in a cycle when the business strategy of seeking to build partnerships for mutual benefit with our customers became popular. We even took it to the stage with a couple of customers where we both opened up our costs to each other to help us identify opportunities where we could provide services that would enable them to push into new markets. It was very successful and one of the CEOs who had a high media profile wrote a book and successfully made himself a bit of a guru on the subject. Now one of those companies having first entered the UK market with the benefit of that strategy is notorious for its brutish treatment of suppliers and workers Hmm

EllyMayClampett · 04/08/2016 14:23

Wish you could tell us the company name whatwouldrondo.. I am not surprised.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2016 14:41

The Bank of England's announcement, I personally do not great news but I'm not surprised. it was inevitable and has taken longer than I expected tbh. I fully expect us to go negative sooner rather than later and enter the world of the Japanese shrinking economy. Everyone prattled on about rises before but the BoE were doing things that suggested the later prior to the referendum. This article from May says exactly this, and exams negative rates in more detail. I posted about this prior to the ref, but it fell largely on deaf ears. (Yep that's an unashamed 'I told you so')

FWIW this is my take on a interest rate cut, with the likelihood of rates going negative as part of this, whilst we are still not into that yet. I'm sure there will be better explanations / analysis out there soon enough than mine and I am very open to criticism on my assessment as its my forte if I'm honest about it. This is how I understand it though.

I note here that negative interest rates have yet to be proven as a effective tool and yet that does seem to be the direction we are headed. I personally think they create as many problems as they solve. They are a sign of a stagnating economy with potentially limited sign for growth.

Its REALLY bad news for pensioners and pension pots. I think that the triple lock is very much at risk.

Its even WORSE news for people of my generation though. The state pension age will only go up again I fear. Public sector workers have not seen the end of cuts to pensions. Pension pots tend to need a certain level of interest / economy growth to make them sustainable. Every cut and every month they are low, is something of a threat to that.

With that in mind, if pensioners are protected, at the expense of the young, that risks all kinds of things. At its worst the split in generations it creates in the country is even more politically destabilising, even if you are a party that relies on the 'grey vote' and it completely undermines May's assertion of being for everyone and creating opportunity.

Also, whilst everyone says its good for mortgages I think there is a cautionary note here. Banks are not obliged to follow the BoE which Andrew Neil also points out

Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
Gov Carney says banks have no excuse not to pass on rate cut. Correct. But doesn't mean they will!

They, in theory, could still raise rates. This is particularly true if profits start to drop if the banks really do start to struggle or their is a worry about their solvency. Plus many people won't be affected immediately by a rate drop as they are on fixed rates.

We still have the issue of a hike of inflation to think about as the value of the pound declines, which will take out a chuck of any savings to mortgage bills quite quickly.

And retired ex-pats in Spain are going to find it harder and harder and will start coming home (at cost to the NHS) whilst we become less attractive to temporary migrant workers (which might be a good thing to some - leave voters who want to stop 'immigrants taking jobs' / but a bad thing to others eg agricultural workers. And in the short term we may well face skills shortages).

It could impact on savers. At some point banks may start to charge people for saving. We take free bank accounts for granted in this country. If you've ever lived abroad and had a foreign account, it is a bit of a shock to find this out. It encourages a 'cash under the bed' mentality too.

It encourages more borrowing, which may or may not help people. When Japan flirted with negative rates, this was not so much of an issue as although borrowing was high, it was largely domestic rather than international and funded by the Japanese themselves. We have no such luxury. Instead we are saddled by massive personal debt problems, and I can't see trying to encourage that as helping the situation. Quite the contrary. Especially if coupled with the introduction of bank charges for accounts. We really need to be getting people to live with in their means rather than become dependent on debt for their long term well being and financial security.

Worst still, whilst this might push the price of property down, it also doesn't mean that it will be easier for younger people to get on the housing market. If it costs you to save whilst rents are pushed up by the buy to let market potentially getting more attractive to savers and no action taken on building as construction projects are axed in the short term.

Overall I think it helps businesses more than individuals. Which given we are desperate for investment and to increase exports and reduce our trade deficient makes a lot of sense. I think that we need to be actively encouraged to buy British as part of this tbh which could be something of a culture shock to us as we have been so used to relatively cheap imported goods. (Protectionism seems to part of the necessity of Brexit and should feature in trade deals).

Hopefully it will help to protect jobs and stop a recession as a result, but on the whole I think it makes life tougher rather than easier for a lot of people, which might seem counter intuitive.

Robert Peston ‏@Peston
The 3-year cost of Brexit is 2.5 percentage points of lost GDP or national income, even with its exceptional stimulus, says Bank of England
Brexit-induced lost GDP for 3 years is equivalent approx to year's spending by government on education, despite costly monetary stimulus

www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/08/joe-carlebach-please-dont-forget-our-hard-working-small-savers.html
A Conservative wrote a little bit about interest rate cuts a couple of days ago, which makes for interesting reading because of where it comes from. If reflective of Conservative voters, May could start losing popularity pretty quickly.

press.labour.org.uk/post/148445049814/britain-still-on-hold-until-hammond-makes-up-his
Labour Press Release on the rate cut, criticises Hammond's lack of action so far and his 'wait and see' approach. They talk about Corbyn's proposed £500 billion package

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/08/how-would-jeremy-corbyn-pay-his-spending-pledges
Whilst the New Statesman ask how Corbyn intends to fund these massive spending pledges.

www.france24.com/en/20160804-eu-hits-china-russia-with-steel-anti-dumping-duties?ref=tw_i
EU hits China, Russia with steel anti-dumping duties.
In any new trade deal we REALLY need to be aware of stuff like this, especially since we will have less leverage and high votes for leave seem to also correlate areas with high imports from China.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-trade-director-general-jean-luc-demarty-canada-deal-european-union-a7171601.html
EU close to death if it can not make a deal with Canada says senior EU official.

europe.newsweek.com/brexit-eu-uk-regret-good-idea-was-brexit-good-idea-487163?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter&utm_term=Autofeed#link_time=1470311436
No Bregrets says survey.

www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/08/daniel-hannan-as-a-card-carrying-conservative-im-alarmed-by-labours-collapse.html
MEP Daniel Hannan is upset by Labour's collapse.

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/08/tory-mep-dan-hannan-endorses-campaign-to-bring-back-blue-passports-gets-mocked-ruthlessly/
And is mocked for supporting the Blue Passport campaign.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/wales-and-the-brexit-vote/
The Welsh Turkeys?! Or a democratic deficit in Wales

And finally,

Jason Spacey ‏@Jason_Spacey
It's unfair to say Ukip couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. They managed it most lunchtimes under Nigel Farage's leadership

OP posts:
prettybird · 04/08/2016 15:02

When I worked for ICI (as a Product Manager), I was also responsible for purchasing a process which added value to the product for which I was responsible.

I had two suppliers: one who charged waaaayyy more than the other, and wanted to put their prices up still more and the other (whose service/product was if anything better) who weren't pushing for a price rise. I was keen to give the 2nd company more business, so I asked my boss (who had recently moved from the Purchasing Dept) what I should do. He said if I needed to, I could tell them to put their price up.

In the event, Company 1 didn't get its price rise (after I investigated the cost of their raw material - via my boss - so their "excuse" wasn't valid) and transferred some business to Company 2 (couldn't move all of it die to capacity/lead time issues). They had the easiest of price negotiations (went up a nominal amount) but I didn't tell them their prices were actually too low, after subtly checking out that their parent company was happy with their profitability and was investing more in the company.

Win-win for us. They were also nicer to deal with as Company 1 was an arrogant bunch.

I too would be interested in a clue as to the company that whatwouldrondo is taking about Wink

I'm a great believer in karma. What goes around will eventually come around (although the Conservative Government is testing that to its limit Hmm).

As a Strategic Account Manager, I closed a number of great deals with an Icelandic customer. I got a good deal for the company I worked for - but my customer also got a good deal. My first boss understood and was very supportive. I had issues for a while with my 2nd boss (after nice boss moved on) until he realised that the deal wasn't going to happen any quicker by trying to squeeze them. It was all about the relationship and building trust. Understanding their objectives and how what they wanted could help our business. Smile

Now if Westminster weren't built deliberately to be adversarial, just think what our Parliament and Government might be able to achieve.....Hmm

SwedishEdith · 04/08/2016 15:30

'Britain owes the European Union tens of billions of euros that Brussels will insist is paid out before the country leaves the 28-nation bloc, sources in Brussels have told Handelsblatt’s sister publication WirtschaftsWoche.'

global.handelsblatt.com/breaking/exclusive-britain-has-a-e25-billion-e-u-bill-outstanding

EllyMayClampett · 04/08/2016 15:40

That's an interesting one Swedish.

nauticant · 04/08/2016 15:55

With that in mind, if pensioners are protected, at the expense of the young, that risks all kinds of things.

Just think about what this means. The younger generation get a radically altered future and are expected to suck it up. OK, let's say they do. On top of that they're then told: we're going to reward the older generation for their choice in landing the uncertain future on you and you'll be footing the bill for that reward. That could end up being a step too far.

The main reason Brexit should go ahead is that if it doesn't then, without rowing back being by general consent, it will cause all kinds of fractures in society. Equally, in implementing Brexit, politicians would be wise not to so blatantly screw over one generation in favour of another. There's plenty of pain to go around and it would only be fair for it to be distributed evenly.

howabout · 04/08/2016 16:18

I agree with you on the dangers of negative interest rates Red and that is why I find it very easy to understand Mark Carney when he says that monetary policy is not the solution to the current problem. This is also why I agree with JC and JMD on the need for a strong signal on the future direction of Fiscal policy. Interesting that the New Statesman article seems to have absolutely no understanding of the concept of fiscal expansion.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2016 16:28

nauticant that's point really.

The trouble the young will end up shouldering the burden as this country has been crippled by the pursuit of popularist politics and vote chasing over and about the national interest of all. All parties have been guilty of it. I really don't see it ending any time soon. For everything May has said in her first speech as PM, her actions don't appear to be reflecting that and the opinions of her Cabinet appointments certainly don't.

Corbyn in a sense is the antidote to that, but he actually goes too far, too fast the other way and his ambitions whilst honourable in many respects are simply too radical, ideological pure but practically naïve and will therefore be destructive rather than achieving their goals. Especially if we, 5 years later, decide he's not managed to get it done quick enough and kick him out and then go down another route. And he too, is guilty of chasing the vote of a particular part of the electorate rather than trying to build consensus. Hell, he can't even do that in his own party.

We really need a long term strategy for the country that is cross party and has widespread consensus and brings the changes we need but in a less seismic way. That's why Corbyn won't win an election. Not because people don't think his ideas are good, but because the way and the speed he would go about it scare the living shit out of a lot of people.

Electoral reform possibility could benefit us from that point of view. Not that I don't have huge reservations about that too. (I don't think the Lords as bad as others think precisely because its not elected and therefore is not at the mercy of the popular vote, though how you get into the Lords obviously is problematic precisely because its undemocratic! And I have real issues about PR too). I ideally wish that there was a way that the idea of the 'public interest' ahead of party politics could be workable within the FPTP system if I'm honest, which is probably simply an opinion that is away with the fairies in its own way too!

DH thinks that the NHS should be more independent from government in a type of trust not dissimilar to the BBC for this reason (although I appreciate that the BBC is increasingly having that battle over its independence and political interference). I'm not sure I agree with the idea, but its at least an alternative solution to what seems to be an inevitable privatisation.

I'm sure this is also why less democratic nations will be seeing more economic growth in comparison to EU nations as they don't necessarily chase the popular vote in the same way.

I don't know what the solution is ultimately. I'm just fucking fed up of the short term crap and if Brexit is going to be about change, then an end to short termism and popularism in the national interest, is the one thing I want to see.

OP posts:
howabout · 04/08/2016 16:38

I was interested to find some perspective on how Canada views CETA in the wake of Brexit. The UK is by far the largest import partner for Canada's exports so I am struggling to see why they would continue to want the trade deal.

www.huffingtonpost.ca/jerry-dias/ceta-trade-deal_b_10970214.html

Not sure how representative these views are for Canada as a whole but it sounds like institutional incompetence in the EU might be the decider anyway. This all looks good for an early agreement on a bilateral trade deal between the UK and Canada.

DoinItFine · 04/08/2016 16:39

Just dropping in to catch up snd link to this blog about David Cameron's referendum addiction:

sluggerotoole.com/2016/08/04/david-cameron-and-the-problem-of-setting-real-political-choices/

I read it and thought of you all.

nauticant · 04/08/2016 17:07

Grrr at that sluggerotoole article. I still get angry when I think about Cameron's arrogance and his "will this do? yeah, it should scrape me a pass" approach to enormous decisions affecting a whole country (or several countries) and tens of millions of people.

One silver lining to this will be his reputation being utterly shit in the years to come when we're trying to find some ways of dealing with this mess.

TheBathroomSink · 04/08/2016 17:13

The Gambling Commission are investigating betting on the Ukip leadership fiasco. Apparently someone high up in Ukip shoved a load of money on one candidate shortly before the favourite (Steven Woolfe) was excluded, which doesn't look good.

via Michael Crick on twitter