Westminstenders Continues. Boris is having a bad week. Corbyn resists. Its gonna be a long summer.

[RedToothBrush]

THE BREXIT FALLOUT CONTINUES - THREAD ELEVEN

The dust is beginning to settle and the storm has abated. At least for the moment. The summer is about to start, and so there may be a break in proceeding.

May has had quite a first week both here and abroad.

The ground has not stopped shaking from the political ripples abroad. Made PM on Weds, Nice on Thursday and a failed coup in Turkey on Friday. The political landscape has changed once again.

At home she first cleared out the Govians and called for loyalty. She channelled the ghost of Maggie at the despatch box. She started the process of trying to make friends with Scots, Germans and the French. She is apparently now Merkel's bestie. Sturgeon is already ousted from that position after just days.

Boris, meanwhile has been rinsed by everyone he speaks to because of what he's said in the past. He's also given up his chickfeed job. Oh the hardship.

Now he looking like he's starting to regret deciding to play with the grown up. He's been trying - and it would seem, largely failing - at sucking up to the Americans. There's still no apology, but he has admitted that he has a list that is so long that he's lost track of what he needs to apologise for. I bet he's wishing for his playmates, Dave and George to come back.

Otherwise life carries on as normal, well this alternate new version of normal, with parliament breaking for the summer today. Don't worry the Martian landing is scheduled for a week Tuesday.

UKIP's polling seems to have dropped back post referendum, and things have gone rather quiet. Wolfe, Etheridge, Duffy and Arnott are all standing (Who? When did that happen? Yeah quite. Without Farage they disappeared). They plan to reform and make an assault on seats in the Labour heartlands of the provisional NW, Midlands and NE at the next general election. Hustings in August, new leader announced Sept 15th. Looks of thinly and not so thinly veiled racism to look forward to there then. The Daily Mail best make sure it upgrades its servers in time.

The Labour contest grinds on like a war of attrition. Stalking horse Angela fell at the first fence as Owen Smith (that's the MP not the journalist everyone including the media!) wins the dream unity candidate ticket for an apparent hiding to nothing against the steely stubbornness of Corbyn. Everyone with a pulse is starting to loose the will to live with it all.

The Lib Dems, have a Spokesman for Remain. Old Cleggy's back! Otherwise they seem to have been trying to do a deluded impression of the opposition party. Though with 8 MPs they aren't doing much better or worse than Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet atm.

The Green are having a leadership battle too. It must be very civilised - I've heard not a word about it. Lucas tried to get a vote about PR though the Commons. It failed. Again.

There also is a cross party idea to set up a new iniative of a progressive movement to champion Europe, which seems to be gaining some traction. It may also double as a support group for anyone who thinks the world has gone a bit nuts lately at this rate.

The SNP are pissed off, as they vow differently on everything and once again they feel that Trident has been imposed on them. Sturgeon had a good meeting with May though, and apparently the Union must remain and Scotland holds the key to the future. Though we don't know the key to which door that is - Braveheart or Brave New World.

The Republic of Ireland is making noises about a referendum about Irish Unity, but beyond that nothing about NI has really been on the radar. May is supposed to go visiting soon.

And the Welsh? Baaaaa who cares about the welsh? They made the mistake of voting Leave as well as the English and now have been forgotten, consigned to political irrelevance forever.

Article 50 has been pushed back officially until the New Year, with a first legal hearing on how to activate it due no sooner than the 3rd week in October. Leaving the EU legally will now be no earlier than 2019.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2685902-Westminstenders-Contines-Boris-outmaneovered-everyone-Now-War-and-Peace?pg=1 Previous Thread TEN

all Baby boomers will always vote Tory. They didn't always.

Some of us have never voted Tory and have absolutely no intention of starting now.

Agree with Tendon about Corbyn's approach. He's basically not sharp or quick enough so lets the momentum of the question slide. And whenever he is put under any sort of pressure (tv interviews) he gets a bit snarly and charmless.

I've no idea how anyone copes in politics. I only need someone to speak to me in a "funny tone of voice" to angst about it for days at work.

I think the Guardian don't support JC because in the end its editorial line is still more centrist than truly left-wing.

So they disagree with JC both ideologically and strategically (since they don't think left-wing politics can win a GE, rightly or wrongly)

I'm also one who initially thought JC's approach to PMQ was interesting, but that it doesn't really work in practice.

Absolutely my point peregrina

I have to say, I don't think it is better to not challenge Tory non-answers, and I think think it makes the non-answer more obvious. Quite the reverse. It looks like Corbyn has been put in his place. A calm, dignified 'I see that again the PM has not answered the question or acknowledged XYZ. I'll try another one',.and then continue, it would do more. EM wasn't always spot on but he did better at this.

A calm, dignified 'I see that again the PM has not answered the question or acknowledged XYZ. I'll try another one',.and then continue, it would do more.

Yes, I agree. It wouldn't have worked with Cameron, but I think that it just might with Theresa May. I have mixed feelings about her - she was responsible for the notorious send illegal immigrants back posters, but then she supported the Hillsborough families, so they gained a result which was not a Government coverup.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-house-of-lords-may-stop-brexit-a7165801.html
The plot is thickening as a Conservative peer is suggesting that the Lords might hold up a50.

The UKIP leadership seems to be getting messy after Woolfe blamed the dog for biting him on the way to hand in his assignment which is why it was late. Apparently the party's NEC is trying to force his campaign manager MEP Nathan Gill to resign. Story on Order, Order Apparently this being viewed a 'stitch up'. Nathan Gill is a Farage supporter.

blogs.ft.com/david-allen-green/2016/08/01/brexit-and-the-challenges-of-reality/
David Allen Green on the reality of the practicalities of Brexit

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/corbyn-supporter-owen-jones-labelled-blairite-traitor-for-criticising-current-leadership-a3308846.html
Owen Jones (the Corbyn fanboy journo) is labelled a Blairite traitor!

I think it might have worked when JC gave his customary pause before moving onto the next question if his front and back benchers had been interjecting with calls to "Answer the Question". Unfortunately every time I have watched they have been more likely to react with sullen silence or friendly fire in support of DC. The tacit support for TM over JC in her first outing did not help.

The Paul Mason article is interesting. However he admits himself to having no clue about Scotland - the possibility of a federal settlement and bringing the SNP into his Alliance of the Left seems beyond him. He is also still in total denial about the neo liberal foundations of the EU and the anti-democratic processes which maintain them.

The EU does NOT have particularly neoliberal foundations; It leans left / right over the years according to the balance of member governments.

It has been heavily influenced by the UK - every government from MrsT onwards pushed the EU far more in that direction than they would have otherwise been, including in the treaties.
Now the UK is out, the balance will probably swing back.
Many European progressives actually welcome Brexit, because they can now develop the social chapter as they wanted, without the UK sabotaging and blocking all workers' rights.

Especially since politicians throughout the West are finally accepting that those pesky expert economists who warned against austerity were correct.

Socialist parties in Europe are in favour of the EU because they find its advantages outweight its disadvantages; it is the far right who want to leave.
And the UK.
Even in the UK, 65% of Labour supporters voted Remain - it was the Tories who were overwhelmingly Leave.

Many of the worst effects of neoliberalism in the UK come from UK governments, not the EU:
The UK has the worst inequality in Western Europe (Russia is probably worse, though)
Disgraceful rundown of public services and welfare benefits
That's due to Tory & Labour policies, not the EU
Many of those jobs created that the Tories boast about are precarious ZHC or because workers can be fired more easily in the UK.

Tory / UKIP keep calling it the EUSSR, because it is far too left for them and they hate the social chapter.
They want a points system that brings in low-paid Indian & Chinese graduates and skilled workers, to drastically depress UK wages.
They want a tax haven UK Ltd without any of that pesky red tape that provides maternity leave, adjustments for disabled workers, anti-discrimination laws.

They want the same ability as companies in the USA, to fire people without cause at a moments notice,
e.g. some years ago my US cousin's DH was fired, with his entire department, to cut costs. They went in as usual that morning and were told to go home immediately, no redundancy pay. He'd worked there 20 years, lost the family health insurance immediately too.

That's the sort of thing the Tories / UKIP hope to do, outside the EU.

Democracy

The Uk has an unelected head of state; the PM was recently elected by MPs reoresenting about 14% of the electorate.
The HoL includes many hereditary peers, representatives of various god-botherer sects, political hacks who can't get elected or who are too old to continue as an MP, plus big party donors - who paid for their peerage.
Check out Cameron's resignation "honours" list.

The MEPs (European Parliament) is directly elected, with the number of votes to elect an MEP weighted in favour of the less populated countries (like Scottish MPs at Westminster)

The Council of Ministers is made of of Ministers from each Government who are democratically elected - so that is democratic.

The Commission is made up of commissioners appointed by each (elected) Government.
Each country could choose to have their commissioners directly elected if they chose, but none do so.

So, I don't see that the UK is any more democratic than the EU - considerably less so, imo

www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/01/ukip-needs-to-play-the-long-game-and-bypass-the-total-amateurs-on-the-national-executive-committee/
Farage is not a very happy bunny.
He is calling the UKIP NEC a bunch of 'total amateurs' and amongst the 'lowest grade of people I've ever met'.

Paradoxically, its almost sounding to me that he wants a bunch of educated people to run UKIP but they must categorically not be educated people!

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/01/are-we-living-through-another-1930s-paul-mason?CMP=twt_gu
Paul Mason again.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/01/nearly-half-a-million-eu-nationals-will-be-forced-to-leave-brita/
Nearly half a million EU nationals will be forced to leave the country claim the Telegraph

Tell all that to the Greeks bigchoc

Paul Mason talking about the 2009 and 2011 G20 summits:

"The elite rejected “pro-cyclical” economics of the kind that plunged the US into depression and Germany into fascism. Everywhere, that is, except Europe – and, even in Europe, far-right extremism has been held at bay until now".

Tell all that to the Greeks bigchoc

I don't see the Greek example as being contradictory with anything bigchoc said

Democracy doesn't necessarily mean fairness. The UK is widely seen as a democracy, yet it consistently shafts specific sections of its population.

But there is contradiction chalala. The Greek democratic process voted to pursue one course of action which was objected to by the overarching EU framework and then imposed. The Greek EU commissioner, council rep and parliamentarians are insignificant voices as far as the EU "democratic" framework is concerned. In contrast DC and AM were able to negotiate a side deal outwith the EU democratic process which the "EU" unilaterally took off the table before the ink was even dry on the Brexit vote.

This is even before you consider the democratic deficit in the current relationships between the EU institutions and with member state parliaments and the lack of political integration across the EU.

Interesting graph on a day that this happens:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/01/rip-maintenance-grants-poor-education-student?CMP=twt_gu

The Greek democratic process voted to pursue one course of action which was objected to by the overarching EU framework and then imposed.

But that's because the Greeks voted for an option that did not exist and that was not within Greek national powers to give. Kind of like Brexit, actually - the UK democratic process voted for free trade without immigration, but it can't force the EU to give it. Doesn't mean the EU is undemocratic as such, just that one single nation can get overruled by the majority, which is democracy.

In contrast DC and AM were able to negotiate a side deal outwith the EU democratic process which the "EU" unilaterally took off the table before the ink was even dry on the Brexit vote

the deal was explicitly conditional upon Britain voting to remain, so it's absolutely fair that they withdrew it. I honestly cannot muster a single ounce of indignation about this.

More Steven Woolfe nonsense.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ukip-steven-woolfe-drink-driving_uk_579f5db3e4b07cb01dd020b3

"Woolfe told Huff Post UK: “I made a foolish mistake 14 years ago which I regret. As the years went on I forgot about the conviction as I got on with my life."

As if.

I wonder if Woolfe will now be prosecuted for this offence - the electoral one I mean - in the way that Chris Huhne and his ex wife were prosecuted?

My indignation is not about the actual decisions but rather the decision making process - well both in the case of Greece but that is a different discussion. As a Scot if NS keeps us in the EU without the rest of the UK then I look forward to being treated with the same disdain as Greece. Ireland was only protected from the absolute worst of Euro austerity by UK bilateral arrangements.

I know this is old news but I got sidetracked by the comments. The pomposity of "There is no confusion. Be more careful to respect what is written, and not to impute to it the characteristics you want to see." and knot tying of what is English.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/steven-woolfe-misses-ukip-leadership-deadline/

The UKIP leadership battle is a horror show that looks set to eclipse both the Tories and the Labour Party in its vileness! I don't think there are any publicity stunts going on. Just a special kind of nastiness, uselessness and incompetence.

6 or 7 candidates in the running:
Jonathan Arnott. - Has a 'big announcement' about his campaign on Wed. That's sure to be an anti-climax then. Wants more referendums
Phillip Broughton - Odd. Got caught out by being a tool on film and someone has rehashed it all by editing it together and made him look an even bigger tool. More Tory than a Tory boy.
Lisa Duffy - Just unpleasant. Farage and Banks hate her.
Bill Etheridge - Wants to bring back the death penalty. Wants to ban prison visits for the first six months of a sentence
Diane James - now the fav.
She supported another UKIP member who made homophobic remarks. She wants voting reform and to get rid of the Lords. Fully paid up member of the Putin fanboy club.
Liz Jones - Good listener. Screamed at a caller on a radio show to shut up in a spectacular melt down
Stephen Woolfe - Is forgetful, lapsed membership, liar, not very good at deadlines. Will be a minor miracle now if he even makes the ballot. He could take it to court though I guess. UKIP don't appear to have a leadership court case yet. They have everything else the Tories and Conservatives managed though.

Raheem Kassam Verified account  ‏@RaheemKassam

Hearing lots on how UKIP mgmt stitching up leadership. Fine. Do it. Have Duffy. 50% of the party will walk away behind me and @Arron_banks.
Open bitching and talk of a split ALREADY.

We have lots of talk about conspiracy to keep Woolfe off the ballot. Including forcing Nathan Gill out.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/694712/bbc-invent-policies-ukip-public-tv-show-programme
BBC are biased against UKIP

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08/01/ukip-s-cack-handed-leadership-race-tells-you-everything-abou
Ukip is not so much a political party as a psychological condition

www.talkcarswell.com/home/the-next-leader-of-ukip-faces-three-big-questions/3096
Carswell on the leadership race

UKIP leadership election is first-past-the-post with 40,000 voters.

I can't disagree with what Carswell says, but what he is silent on is saying what exactly his party will offer disaffected Labour voters. All he could say is that it wouldn't be Fabian socialism.

He himself as an ex Tory could probably offer what the Tories traditionally offered to the sector of working class voters that help shore up their vote.