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Brexit

Does anyone else find themselves getting more sympathetic to the other side

429 replies

whydidhesaythat · 11/07/2016 20:59

I don't know if this is just another stage in the cycle of grief but I'm starting to feel that:

Those of us who were doing very nicely out of Europe thank you ignored those who didn't

EU money can go into buildings but that's not the same thing as helping people

People outside the urban centres felt the EU was just another siphon of power away from them

London patronises the regions

Not everyone got to go on a gap year to a European country so why should they be bothered about my kids having one?

There actually is a non racist anti immigration argument

I'm not saying any of this right, it may just be another reaction....but does anyone else find themselves empathising with the other side more than they did?

OP posts:
Underparmummy · 12/07/2016 11:35

HopeArden - you appear to be making the assumption British people are willing to do the work in farms, fields and food factories that the Eastern Europeans do. They arent. Minimum wage now mandatory in the sector.

Surferjet · 12/07/2016 11:36

Wrong. The 'anything is better than this' formed a large part of the 52% - people who had never voted before went out & voted this time. Because for once, they were voting for real change.

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2016 11:38

"Wrong. The 'anything is better than this' formed a large part of the 52% - people who had never voted before went out & voted this time. Because for once, they were voting for real change."

37%

Do you have any stats?

SnowBells · 12/07/2016 11:38

Well, as expected it's very likely not the Remainers who will feel the brunt of Brexit. But then again, Leavers voted for this, right?! Brexit towns see their factories shut

smallfox2002 · 12/07/2016 11:42

Surfer, yup they may have voted for real change, but they won't get it, and any that do come their way will be for the worse, they didn't vote for that, but were duped into voting for a group who have very different interests.

nauticant · 12/07/2016 11:49

Why is it only uk citizens from poorer backgrounds who can't move for jobs? What makes them so different from e.g. Polish people?

This assumes that UK people come in different types but "Polish people" come in one type, the hard worker who can make a life for themself working in the UK.

The "Polish people" we see here are the more able from their society with the skills, the education, the grit or whatever. The "Polish people" we don't see remain at home leading lives that won't be that different from the "uk citizens from poorer backgrounds who can't move for jobs".

HopeArden · 12/07/2016 11:51

I think British people are willing to do that work if they can afford to do so. There are still plenty of jobs in this country where workers don't even get sick pay. There is also a problem where taking seasonal work messes up tax credits and housing benefit such that people don't feel they can afford to take on the work.

smallfox2002 · 12/07/2016 11:57

"The "Polish people" we see here are the more able from their society with the skills, the education, the grit or whatever. The "Polish people" we don't see remain at home leading lives that won't be that different from the "uk citizens from poorer backgrounds who can't move for jobs".

The only bit I'd agree with there is the "grit" everything else... rubbish.

The Polish people we have here are the ones that have been prepared to take a chance, shown a bit of determination to succeed.

There are lots from poorer backgrounds who have come because they see opportunities to better themselves, not all of them have qualifications or even have that fantastic a command of English, but they learn!

There are lots of Poles and other EU citizens who are here because they show a bit of determination.

Its what strikes me as different, really, the people in the C4 Sunderland clip :" We don't get anything" and I have started to think well what have you gone out to get yourself? I'm from the North East too!

Its the big difference.

CancellyMcChequeface · 12/07/2016 11:57

Bertrand (and other Remainers?) -

It's complicated. I think it's a question of values and priorities and the reason there's such a big emotive division is because people are making decisions based on very different value-sets - which means that voters on either side explaining their reasoning isn't likely to sway the 'opposition.' I'll try to explain my reasons, with the caveat that this thread isn't really the place for a lengthy debate on it, and I'm very aware that I'm in the minority on this site.

Essentially, I voted based on principles of national sovereignty: that our country should be able to make its own laws and decisions based on what is in our best interests, not the interest of Europe. They aren't always the same thing, as the situation in Greece illustrates, and even though there are veto systems in place, the EU is able to force things through regardless (Lisbon treaty being a case in point.) Juncker and the 'ever-closer union' are, frankly, alarming. I don't want a United States of Europe, and while that isn't the case now, a Remain vote is a vote not just for the current EU but for the future of the EU, whatever direction it might take. I believe that European countries are too diverse socially, economically and culturally for one-size-fits-all policy to fit any of them.

I don't agree with David Cameron (or Theresa May) on very many issues, but it was the very disappointing result of Cameron's talks with the EU which sealed my 'Leave' vote. I believe we ought to be able to determine our own policy. I didn't vote Tory, but I recognise that the majority did, and also that if they steer the country in a direction we don't agree with, we have the opportunity to vote them out and elect a party who will act more closely in accord with the wishes of the electorate (I'm not an idealist, they all lie and spin things, but at least we have a chance, unlike with the EU and 'we have to have VAT on tampons because they say so' and so on.)

I don't believe that leaving the EU will lead to a collapse of environmental protections, workers' rights, and so on, because any party that did these things would find itself out of power very quickly. The Tories have proven themselves very good at demonising the unemployed and the very poorest, but dismantling our essential rights would be much harder to craft a discourse around because it affects so many more people.

I think the pound will recover, given time. I think that Britain can arrange trade deals with both European and non-European countries that will be to our advantage, and it's my opinion that the post-referendum dip was in part the fault of the immediate media scaremongering after the result. I was very impressed with Mark Carney, to be fair, but almost everyone else I heard speak on the morning of the result was predicting doom, whereas if the messages had been more positive, the short-term economic consequences wouldn't have been so dire. Of course that's impossible to prove/disprove, but it's how it seems to me.

I believe that controlling immigration (deciding the numbers, not 'banning foreigners' or sending people already here home, or anything like that) will lead to a decrease in unemployment rates and will better the life chances of working-class people, especially the low-skilled. These people are pretty much written off by society at present and it doesn't have to be that way.

From personal experience, I have relatives who have worked in the building and associated trades for decades. They're highly skilled, and now finding it difficult to find work because they are being seriously undercut by European workers. I don't blame the European workers! They are doing what's best for them and their families, the same as anyone would - rather, I blame the system which means that an unlimited number of people can move here, regardless of if their skills are in short supply or not. I'm not 'anti-immigration,' I just think we need to be sensible about it. We're a small country.

I voted Leave, really, because I'm hopeful that the future, in the long term, can be better than the present, and that we should have the power to shape the future of our country. I'm against unelected European bureaucrats and one-size-fits-all policy (I'm also very sceptical about the House of Lords and the monarchy and think we should have PR instead of FPTP, but the referendum wasn't on those issues!)

That got a bit lengthy. Again, I realise most of you will disagree with me, and I'm not a politician or professional writer or anything so some of it might not be worded very well, but it's one rationale for 'why I don't regret my Leave vote' at least. I can understand (and sympathise) if you consider other factors more important to you than the ones I based my vote on, and wanted to Remain for those reasons, especially if you're personally affected. If you want to think I'm 'stupid' or similar, that's your prerogative, but ad hominem attacks don't really help either side.

Surferjet · 12/07/2016 12:02

smallfox - there's absolutely no way you can possibly know that. I've seen politician after politician saying they just don't know what the future holds, they can make predictions or just guess, but they don't know for sure.
If you have the ability to see into the future, then I suggest you jump in a cab & get down to number 10 asap.

Underparmummy · 12/07/2016 12:07

HopeArden - I agree our benefit system is crap! Eastern Europeans will follow the seasonal work from the UK to Spain for the winter.

smallfox2002 · 12/07/2016 12:13

Surfer:I can make fairly good predictions based on what will happen to inflation, the tax take, the economy etc.

I'm experienced enough to know what happens when you hand power over the country to the conservatives.

I know enough to know that "cutting red tape" will not mean product quality points or more difficult points, but it will be the easier to cut the ones to do with employment.

I know enough to be able to predict that a referendum demanded by the hard neo liberal right will not "benefit" the poorest in the country.

I can accurately make predictions, see , my predictions about the £, the markets and what will happen to businesses that deal with the EU are already coming true. I even predicted the FTSE would start to get a lot better due to how cheap shares were, lots of foriegn buyers pushing up the value, it could be good, but the other indicators, the consumer confidence, the sector reports from last week don't demonstrate this.

Its not like others haven't predicted it.

Surferjet · 12/07/2016 12:13

Great post CancellyMcChequeface

ssd · 12/07/2016 12:16

I get paid Min Wage and last week I was off work ill, I got paid £25 sick pay for the week I was off...

so now we are coming out of the EU, will the new leaders in charge care about people like me?

will they hell

some protest vote, you really showed them didnt you!!!

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2016 12:20

"I don't believe that leaving the EU will lead to a collapse of environmental protections, workers' rights, and so on"

Just to choose one thing from your post- if you believe this, what is the "red tape" that many leavers want to get rid of that's apparently hampering British business?

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2016 12:21

And what sort of timescales are we looking at?

Kummerspeck · 12/07/2016 12:28

Cancelly Great explanation, thank you.

I have posted this article before but it really resonated with me. My local area has had a lot of EU funding but it has all gone into things which are rarely used by most of the local poor or working class while jobs created have been low wage, often zero hours and often gone to EU migrants

ManonLescaut · 12/07/2016 12:30

EU money can go into buildings but that's not the same thing as helping people

EU's funding of Cornwall included broadband (without the EU Cornwall would still be on dial up), infrastructure including rail improvements, development of a university campus at Penryn, support for local businesses including yacht builders Pendennis and clothing brand Seasalt, among many others, which of course creates jobs.

How is that not 'helping people'?

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2016 12:34

kummerspek- whet sort of things did EU money go into?

And zero hours contracts are a UK policy- nothing to do with the EU.

CancellyMcChequeface · 12/07/2016 12:38

Thank you, Surferjet and Kummerspeck!

Bertrand I don't think that all regulations are equally valid or beneficial. Some guarantee essential rights for workers, others are petty and unnecessary. There's a middle ground between EU over-regulation and hard-libertarian free marketeering! Our system has a certain amount of checks and balances built in - it's incredibly unlikely, for instance, that even as PM Andrea Leadsom would have been able to seriously pursue her (terrible) idea to have no minimum wage requirement for very small businesses, because there would have been very little support for it in Parliament.

Timescale - I can't say. I'd literally be pulling numbers out of the air, but then so would anyone else at this point. It depends on how soon Article 50 is declared and how well the exit negotiations go/what sort of a deal we end up with.

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2016 12:39

Sorry to bang on- but which ones are petty and unnecessary?

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2016 12:42

And surely you have some idea when things were going to start to get better? Months? Years? Decades?

ssd · 12/07/2016 12:45

"petty and unnecessary", like paying VAT on tampons, thats a real biggie, we wont have to worry about that soon, what a triumph!!!

whilst the economy nosedives and companies prepare to move to the EU or essential funding is cut to areas that dont seem to have appreciated it anyway

sheesh

ssd · 12/07/2016 12:46

Bertrand, the leave voters just having a feeling, so dont worry about it!!!

they know things will improve...

SnowBells · 12/07/2016 12:51

Most Leavers who bang on about over regulation don't actually know what's being over-regulated, Bertrand. A lot of the ones I heard of before were regulations put in place that tried to mitigate indirect environmental polution/harm. But many didn't realise that's what those rules were for (e.g. contents of paint, etc.).

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