Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

Allegrettto
I note youre not offended by the vicious thoroughly OTT slippery slope argument that your attack on me has encouraged.

Lico
First select a group of people, attack it then dehumanise it in order to justify deportation. Genocide next?

Get a grip Lico!
Justifiable criticism of a particular German immigrant going to lead to "genocide"?
How would deporting benefit seeking European immigrants like this German woman do that then?

MGFM

Yes, these opportunities exist... however, in a country where many state school students apparently need a serious push rather than a helping hand to apply to just Oxbridge despite having the grades (oh, loads of MN threads about that... was told I can't expect poor state students to be as self-sufficient as I was at their age)... you'll realise that most kids will not have it in them to research opportunities in Mexico or Japan like you did. They seem to need things served on a plate for them.

I mean... I agree with you there... but based on what I've been told by MN and many teachers over the years , you (or I) are not normal.

Which is sort of sad.

"I have a German friend who has lived here 8.5 yrs. Her son only knows the UK (no other language). She lives in a council house & has PT min. wage job having worked little before that. She'd probably not make the grade to stay, but hey, I didn't get the result I wanted did I."

Aerfen are you for real?

The German woman you are referring to has lived here and made a life as a guest and perfectly legal. Her ds doesn't even speak German and the mother might not have family or friends in her native country. She is no more of a drain on the system than any other British person who receives benefits from the State and her son is a boost to sinking birthrates in the UK. Ask yourself what kind of a person you are if you speak with such little sympathy about a 7 year old boy, whose family are low earning and vulnerable. You don't sound like someone who has much compassion and certainly no sympathy with people from disadvantaged backgrounds.

If this family will forced to leave and return to their home country it will be better for them in terms of social housing, and state benefits as the German system is much more generous interns of benefits. Pleas don't think the UK is the bees knees when it comes to help from the state, on the contrary.

God the hate some people have here against foreigners, highly unattractive and disturbing.

"How would deporting benefit seeking European immigrants like this German woman do that then?"
What utter nonsense. As I said this woman hardly came to this country in search for hand outs, you know? Arrfen German is a very wealthy country with relatively generous benefits and great healthcare. The UK is seen as a quite unattractive choice of country for a lot of Germans I have spoken to over the years. I have met a few of them in various jobs and at uni and they could not wait to return home.

Yes FTW63. Unfortunately, there are SOME people who really think the UK is the be all and end all of all things 'benefits'...

Newsflash - most European countries have a national health system. They just don't call it "NHS". Maybe this Guardian article from 2014 will help...

P.S.: Living costs in Germany are substantially lower than in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36746763

In Plymouth, a shed next to a Polish family's house was set on fire on Wednesday night. I watched the video (further down the page) and the family have lived in the UK for a long. The older daughter who explains what happened is very well spoken and so together, I totally admire her. Their shed was burnt down and her younger sister (14 yrs) ran out on the street to look out for the Fire Brigade. When the young girls went back in, she found a threatening letter saying that the family would be next unless they fu back to their country.

So what about Britsh citizens who have never worked and choose to live on benefits? Are they also parasites and a drain on society? As an EU citizen and taxpayer in the UK should I object to my money being used to fund the lazy and feicless who would rather sit on their backsides and blame bloody foreigners for stealing their jobs?

So what about Britsh citizens who have never worked and choose to live on benefits?

Ah, but they're white British. Haven't you realised yet, that makes you special ?

People are obsessed almost hysterical about benefits in the UK for some weird reason especially in light of how small it features in the actual budget.

More concerning is the amount of tax evasion and evading that goes on £120 billion.

BreakingDad77

(adopts playful tone)

There you go again with your facts and all - get you !

lurking

FTW63
We do not know why the German woman came - the poster who originally mentioned her told us she foremrly had an English boyf, so sh emay have come for that reason, but the poster has since stated she actually doesnt know her very well.

As to her son not speaking German again we do not know. I would say its unlikely the woman is stupid enough not to have ensured he has at least a basic understanding when ALL his relatives are German (his father too). However if youd bothered to read the thread instead of diving in with offensive remarks and prejudices such as that I 'hate' all foriegners, then youd see I'd already dealt with that point. Even if he speaks no German he would learn his mothers native tongue very easily, more easily in fact than foreign children brought to Britain by their parents who sometimes do not speak English themselves.

This exageration of the boys 'need' to stay in Britain is nonsense. The MOTHER clearly wants to remain here for her own benefit, and , as has rightly been pointed out, Germany is a wealthier country offering better prospects for her son than Britain, so the logical conclusion must be that the package of benefits she enjoys here, including a council house, is superior.

Germany does indeed have a good welfare system, but unlike Britains its more a contribution based system and isnt so generous towards those in receipt of social welfare, which is very strictly means tested. Again I have alreaddy explained this, but dont let the facts stand in the way of your prejudices against anyone who deigns to criticize any immigrant!

And to Snowbells . Yes I am well aware that Eu countries have health services, many excellent, but unlike Britain they are NOT free at the point of delivery, but require you to contribute to various state run or private health insurance schemes.

Lurking
Since we are talking about a white German woman then your snide little reference to skin colour is nothing more than a dimwitted attempt to smear.

The German healthcare system is free for those on low incomes/unemployed as long as they have been continuous members of it.

What you can't do is jump between private and public to suit your changing circumstances.

If the woman in question was a public member before leaving Germany, she would be able to rejoin publicly on her return. Not that I think she should have to return.

MangosteenSoda
"The German healthcare system is free for those on low incomes/unemployed as long as they have been continuous members of it".

Government health insurance is some 15% of income. Its not free as the NHS is.

"The health insurance rates charged by the Krankenkassen are 14.6% (plus 1.1% median supplemental premium) of your monthly salary up to a maximum salary amount of 4,238 Euros. This means that the average monthly premium on the market for 120 public Krankenkassen can be up to approximately 665 Euros
In addition, mandatory nursing care insurance costs a maximum of 110 Euros per month.
Members of the state health plan pay up to 10 Euros in co-payments for prescription medicine and must accept generics.
Hospital stays cost 10 Euros per day (max. 280 Euros per year) for members of the state health plan."

Healthcare in Germany is free for those on low income ( on Hartz IV), unemployed ,etc . It is a benefit very similar to universal credit and includes low earning top ups and housing costs,etc .
In Spain Healthcare is also free if in low income the person just has to claim having not resources.
In Spain you have contributory benefits but after they run out if dependants etc you get extra months on subsidiary ones.Even In terms of non contributory benefits almost all regions have the Salaries Sociales that are not time limited at all , euskadi has rgi, castilla leon rai , Galicia risga etc . Around 65 to 65 of minimum working full time salary plus extra for dependants .
I think they are quite a lot of British getting Hartz IV in Germany , probably more than Germans claiming benefits in the UK .
Germany also has free or almost free Universities and student loans for maintenance etc . ( thinking about it probably the child long term would be better in Germany but The mother may find difficult leaving her life here and friends etc or find relocation costs impossible )

And Britain gets good value for money in terms of healthcare and social care for their pensioners in Spain and France . I mean if the one million expats of pension age were in Britain They would cost a lot more because running those services is much more expensive here than in Spain or France .
Lots of EU/ British families with children in the UK and in the EU . I'm sure They want to have both their parents around .

I am one of the EU nationals living in the UK - and I have already had someone tell me to go back home now.

I naturally would like to have my rights to stay here guaranteed as soon as possible.

However, we are dealing with negotiations and if the UK promises that the EU nationals can stay now, then what happens if the EU countries do not want to do the same for the UK nationals living in the other EU countries?
It needs to be done correctly - it has be agreed so the rights of both UK nationals in the EU countries and EU nationals in the UK are guaranteed.

If the rights of EU nationals in the UK are guaranteed now, and the EU countries refuse to guarantee the rights of the UK nationals in the EU countries, then we might end up with the PM retracting the guarantee already made.

I know that people are saying that we shouldn't be used as leverage, but in reality that's not the way it works.
We will be used as leverage, because that is the only way to ensure that the rights of EU nationals in the UK are guaranteed in exactly the same way as the rights of UK nationals living in EU countries.

Aerfen

Newsflash! What do you think people pay National Insurance Contributions for?!? What's the difference between paying NIC and paying a state-run insurance scheme?!?

I have lived in several countries!!! Sorry to tell you this, but the UK is NOT special.

Also... as I said, Germany is a LOT cheaper to live in than the UK... even if you pay insurance schemes from your income (which tends to be higher than in the UK), it leaves you with enough to live on.

Snowbells.
What do you think people pay National Insurance Contributions for?!? What's the difference between paying NIC and paying a state-run insurance scheme?!?

I am very surprised that you do not understand the difference. Basically the British so called NIC system is not an 'insurance' scheme at all. It is nothing more than a further form of taxation (and one incidentally which is less progressive than income tax.

People do not pay NICs into a pot to cover future costs, but instead, people paying in now are paying a tax to cover the costs of those drawing down on it now. It is future workers who will cover the costs of today's workers medical expenses as they increase in old age. This contrasts with a proper insurance scheme when money is put aside during the years you take down less, to cover the costs of later treatment. Its not even ring fenced for the purpose its allegedly intended.

"As the review of the tax system conducted by the nobel prize winner Sir James Mirrlees noted: “National Insurance is not a true social insurance scheme; it is just another tax on earnings, and the current scheme invites politicians to play games with NICs without acknowledging that these are essentially part of the taxation of labour income. The two systems need to be merged.”"
www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2015/jul/26/time-to-look-at-national-insurance-the-ultimate-stealth-tax

"Germany is a LOT cheaper to live in than the UK... even if you pay insurance schemes from your income (which tends to be higher than in the UK), it leaves you with enough to live on"
You exaggerate the difference and it depends where you live. You cannot base such claims only on a personal experience probably several years ago.
London is hideously expensive but if we compare say Bristol with Munich:
Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in Bristol are 1.02% lower than in Munich
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Bristol are 2.78% lower than in Munich
Rent Prices in Bristol are 6.35% lower than in Munich
Restaurant Prices in Bristol are 11.43% higher than in Munich
Groceries Prices in Bristol are 7.91% higher than in Munich
Local Purchasing Power in Bristol is 26.75% lower than in Munich

However what are you attempting to prove by this? German single mum would be financially better off in Germany? No that doesn't follow if she is getting a better overall package of benefits here.