Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

Well apart from voting, none of those would apply to me and as far as I know has applied to any of the EU citizen I know who are living here. Even when they have been here for 20+ years.....

That's of course before you even start talking about the cost and the complexity of applying for the British citizenship.

As for the fact that acces is easier in the UK, that's the fault of the British government, not the people who use it!! If they had wanted to be stricter, they had plenty of opportunity to do so so blaming EU citizens instead ....
Maybe it would be more helpful to go back to the people who are responsible for that decision...

I also notice that you haven't answer my question.
If that woman is a parasite and needs to 'go back to her own country', are you also happy to take the responsibility to separate her from her dcs? And to take the responsibility of any potential costs associated with the trauma coming form that, the fact their father might now be a single parent receiving some benefits (totally possible) etc?

Aerfen you seem fixated oin the idea that people only go and live in another country because of the benefits .
I can promise you that benefits haven't been the mind of anyone that I know who has come to the UK or any other EU country.

People 'immigrate' because they want a better life, ie better job prospect, better wages. They want a better quality of life, eg more sunshine (so they go live in Australia/Spain from the UK for example). They move because their partner is from that country (that's the case of that German woman).
But for the benefits? You have an extremely poor image of immigrants really.

Allegretto
You put a great deal of faith in Government ministers competence and in their having our interests at heart.
They have done no such thing I am afraid, and have taken measures (albeit pretty ineffective) to reduce immigration. Unfortunately we have so many weaknesses in our system and we are so tightly constrained by EU law the HRA and the ECHR that there is only limited wriggle room to make changes.
Its very much a case of muddling along appeasing various interest groups and advancing their own self interest sadly.

I can't see why anybody already here shouldn't be allowed to stay and granted citizenship, they came here in good faith when there was free movement, not knowing things might change, some have built a life here, got kids in school etc but not applied for citizenship because they didn't think they needed to. It's unfair to move the goalpost now. I voted to Leave but immigration wasn't a big issue for me, I am appalled at the idea of breaking up families where one parent is an EU citizen and another a British citizen. I can't actually believe any government would want this as the vast majority of people would also find it appalling and they would never get voted in again.

I can't see why anybody already here shouldn't be allowed to stay and granted citizenship, they came here in good faith when there was free movement, not knowing things might change

Provided British citizens in the EU are granted exactly the same consideration! Are you not bothered about them Maz?

Aerfen I came here many years ago on the understanding that I could build a life here and have the same rights as everyone else and under reciprocal arrangements within the EU. In response to your suggestions for reasons to apply for citizenship when I did not need to:

1. To vote

• My citizenship gives me full right to vote in the UK

2. Out of psychological commitment to this country, her marriage, her life.

• Seriously....I should change my passport to be more worthy and show commitment to my husband?What century are we in

3. Permanent right of residence and the help of the British consul if in trouble overseas It's an awful lot of trouble to go to just in case I need the help of the British consul for a couple of weeks camping in France 4. Right to represent Britain in international competitions.

• Im well past representing any country in competitions....unless its international wine drinking

Where did Maz say she wasn't bothered about them?

Sorry aerfen but under your "sounding reasonable" cloak, I think you are spreading hate and gaslighting people. Am going to hide this thread.

Aerfen Yes British citizens in the EU should be granted the same, of course they should.

Maz2444466 2 Aerfen Yes British citizens in the EU should be granted the same, of course they should.

Pleased you said that, and all May has done is refuse to promise permanent residency to EUers unilaterally, until the EU does the same in its turn.
So you would support that stance presumably? I would, but some posters here appear to be demanding we make guarantees even before the EU agrees to mirror that promise.

www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354

This is for the poster who said there were more Brits living in other EU countries. There are approx 1.2 million Brits spread across 27 EU countries. There are 3 million EU citizens in the UK of which there are 850,000 polish people. Immigration doesn't affect me really at all. In fact I have a lovely Portuguese couple renting my flat and they are fantastic but I can see why some people are sick of the vast numbers. Imagine if 850,000 Brits rocked up in Poland. Uncontrolled immigration in the long run will cause the population to explode. I voted leave. I did European studies at university 12 years ago and even then we would sit around discussing how undemocratic it is. It was an essay question on the exam. Appearing to be democratic with MePs isn't the same as actually being democratic. There are numerous books and articles written on the subject on both sides of the argument. Anyway, I think those already here should be able to remain. But politicians never like to commit themselves .

It's simple negotiation skills. You don't give away anything before negotiations start.

FarAwayHills
Well at least as you are free to apply for citizenship at any time you need have no concerns about being expelled even if you and OH split up!
Also as youre presumably a Commonwealth immigrant not from the EU (full voting right you said), Brexit has nothing whatsoever to do with your residency rights here.

"You don't give away anything before negotiations start"

Exactly, unless youre Andrea Leadsom it seems!.

Aerfen

German politicians from different parties are already talking about giving British people in the EU dual nationality. They already see that as a given!!! Theresa May using EU citizens as bargaining chips makes her seem like a monster.

And let me think again - we said 'no' to the EU which seems to treat people much nicer... and gave a big YES to the Tories who treat people like dirt.

Are Leave voters into S&M by any chance?!? This is all Fifty Shades of Bullshit, to be honest.

Aerfen I don't believe countries in the EU will want to punish British citizens by not granting them citizenship, if the EU is seen as a dictatorial prison then it will only further Eurosceptism. I feel confident that this is a case where heartless politics won't be inflicted on ordinary people as the disgust from ordinary people in British and European countries would bring down the Tory government/EU project respectively and it's in both of their self-interests not to do so, even if the politicians themselves don't understand it is morally abhorrent!

Yes I am free to apply, but you are assuming that I've got the spare £1200 ish pounds for the application along with meeting the income requirements if I were a single, unemployed person as in the case of the German lady.

And I'm Irish, so Brexit does absolutely have everything to do with my rights here.

MGFM - you are right, I made that mistake because I was looking at old figures. Due largely to Poles coming to the UK the figure is now higher - of course, the irony is that Polish immigration is often short term and is a big boon to the British economy so we are actually better off now then we were before their arrival. Of course, I can understand that in areas where there has been a big increase in Polish workers it might seem so great if they are undercutting locals but we should ask the question: who is undercutting the locals? Who is offering less than minimum wage? (Usually a Brit - why aren't we mad about this exploitation and illegal behaviour?) More importantly if your job can be stolen by someone with no contacts or language skills who has only just arrived in the country, what does that say about your employability?

Aerfen - please remember you are talking about real people and moderate your offensive language. I agree with Crossroads - your posts are clear examples of hate speech. You also seem to think that everybody in the world wants to come to the UK - this just isn't true.

I don't think it necessarily that they are paying less that minimum wage. It is that jobs are being kept at minimum wage. There was a woman on another thread who said her husband was earning £15 per hour as a welder in a factory. Eastern European welders came in happy to earn minimum wage and eventually her husband was made redundant. I am sure there are plenty more examples of this. I think if you live in or near areas of mass immigration or have experience of the negative side effects then you don't care how much they pay in tax as it doesn't offset the drawbacks for a lot of people. The very wealthy and politicians and all those movie stars have no clue what it is like to be on low pay living in the Uk as immigration as only been positive for them. It isn't the same for everyone. There are very few EU countries that have seen the freedom of movement on a scale of the U.K. Germany is one, Sweden, probably France. And as for benefits. In Spain you only get out a decent welfare payment if you have previously paid in. Otherwise you get very very little which is why lots of young Spanish people live at home for years and years.

Italy has seen HUGE EU immigration - I think there is a misconception (not saying that you share it MGFM) that all the movement is one way. Maybe we should be looking at only providing welfare payments if you have paid in (as is the norm in many countries)? To be honest, I have always found it a bit strange that you can go straight from school to unemployment benefit - but that is the subject for another thread!

Of course, I can understand that in areas where there has been a big increase in Polish workers it might seem so great if they are undercutting locals but we should ask the question: who is undercutting the locals? Who is offering less than minimum wage? (Usually a Brit - why aren't we mad about this exploitation and illegal behaviour?)

This is missing the point rather (you're not the first!).

They are not 'undercutting locals' by accepting less than minimum wage; it is because they are more than willing to work for minimum wage that they are driving wages down.

Before the rapid influx of Eastern European migrants, a low skilled job would advertise with above minimum wage to attract and get the best applicants.
In Poland (for eg) the average wage is about half the UK average wage, so the Polish migrants are more than happy to work a low skilled job for more than double what they could get in Poland.

The British folk who were filling these low skilled jobs suddenly find that where they were getting (for eg) £10 per hour before - their contracts were ended & a Polish migrant contracted instead for a couple of £ an hour less.

More importantly if your job can be stolen by someone with no contacts or language skills who has only just arrived in the country, what does that say about your employability?

Again, it's rather superior & completely out of touch to say 'look to your own employability & skills'.
If (as an employer) you had the choice of an EU migrant willing to work for the minimum wage possible, and is willing to work for minimum incentives etc, then who would you choose?

The folk who were forced out or undercut then have to accept the minimum possible and so everything stays shit for everyone, but all within the law.

Back when I was a teenager in the early 90s, I was earning up to £5 or £6 an hour doing bar work, waitressing, cleaning etc - 20 odd years later those same jobs are only paying a couple of £ more.

Shit outcome for all - and nothing to do with people being 'too good' for certain jobs or lacking in employability skills.

Sorry MGFM, it took me so long to write my post that I cross posted & just repeated yours!

I have checked and you are right , Italy has seen a massive influx of Romanians. Do you not find it interesting that the massive movement of people occurred after poorer countries joined the EU? I think the freedom of movement idea was actually brilliant and worked really well when the EU countries were by and large similar in terms of economic status and GDP and average salary. it was inevitable that people from poorer countries would move for better paid jobs etc but I always thought the freedom of movement wasn't necessarily for a 'better life' and that wasn't its intention

I'm a bit confused by your last statement - why would you move for a worse life??

Freedom of movement was so companies could source the right skills for the right post and weren't constrained by country. It has morphed into what we have today