Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

I suspect the reason is that she enjoys better benefits here since although German benefits are very generous too, theyre not non contributory as ours are. She would have to work first. The poster has already said she didnt work in Germany either.

a. This lady worked in Germany.
b. Germany is a better place to be on many counts.

SHE IS NOT HERE FOR THE BENEFITS

My h is always banging on about everyone coming here for a cushy life, and not only that, they are apparently ONLY coming to the UK .

David Cameron's reforms would have put an end to the people who do come here looking for "top ups".

Too late to see if those reforms changed anything however as we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I say we - 37% of the electorate have.

crossroads3 said
Re German single mum benefits claimant and tenant of British council house!

"a. This lady worked in Germany.
b. Germany is a better place to be on many counts.
SHE IS NOT HERE FOR THE BENEFITS"

I am sorry crossroads shouting does not make your claim correct.

The earlier poster who knows her stated:

"I have a German friend who has lived here 8.5 yrs. Her son only knows the UK (no other language). She lives in a council house & has PT min. wage job having worked little before that. She'd probably not make the grade to stay."

This means that she would qualify only for the most basic benefits in Germany, benefits being generous but largely contributions based. Social assistance is means tested and requires you to be penniless (a cause of gripe from recent refugees to Germany)

There is every reason to believe her prime reason for remaining here is the exceedingly generous way she has been treated, given in work benefits and given a "house" (shocking in itself why not a two bedroomed flat?) British 'in work' benefits such as she is claiming are significantly higher than most, if not all, other EU countries. Part time workign is also much more widespread here. If she returned to her homeland she would probably need to take a full time job.

I do not buy the idea that she would have concerns for her son having to adapt to living in Germany. With German speaking extended family around him and being an ethnic German his situation would be vastly easier than that of say a Romanian child with non English speaking parents moving to Britain , and most of them settle in fine. Nor do I believe he speaks no German whatsoever! How does he communicate with his German grandparents?

This boys father is German too, and even if the mother doesnt keep in touch, his son may benefit from doing so. It would clealry be in his interests for her to return to her country. LOL IF Britains economy is going down the pan as apparently most Bremainers believe then it would certainly be VERY MUCH in his interests to get back to the land where he was born.

There are more Britons living abroad in the EU than EU citizens living in the UK so the arguments about there not being enough resources, school places etc don't really hold up. If you want to get rid of all EU citizens in the UK, then you should logically agree with all the Brits abroad coming BACK. As they tend to be older statistically (a lot of retirees) the contribute less to the economy. So basically, regardless of one German whom you don't know, as a whole, such a move would be much worse for the country economically - and that's without even factoring in the human element.

Aerfen - your argument doesn't hold up. It really is pointless to argue the point over ONE person whom you don't know when we do know as a whole EU workers contribute more to the UK than they take!

(BTW it is not as easy as saying "go back" to a mother and a child - a court does not necessarily allow a mother to take her child out the country if she is divorced or separated - how do you know she is not obliged to stay here?)

I am disgusted at the very thought of even contemplating using eu citizens as a bargaining chip, even if it is just a negotiation position it is utterly wrong

I agree.

"Aerfen - your argument doesn't hold up. It really is pointless to argue the point over ONE person whom you don't know when we do know as a whole EU workers contribute more to the UK than they take! "

Non EU migrants get treated pretty badly at times, even when they do work and have skills. Every immigration case involves a human being with a life and connections to the uk.

The question is whether we would send home an Indian single mother who was on benefits just because her marriage broke up. There is the potential situation where a woman might be fearful to flee abuse knowing that the courts might not allow her to stay in the uk, but force her children to stay in the uk with her abuser.

ReallyTired
"Aerfen - your argument doesn't hold up. It really is pointless to argue the point over ONE person whom you don't know when we do know as a whole EU workers contribute more to the UK than they take! "

What 'argument' do you imagine that is? I was discussing this one EU immigrant, that's all. She appears to be remaining here for her own benefit, not primarily her sons, as her friend on here claims, and she is a drain on on British taxpayers and as such is not a desirable immigrant. I am simply defending the other poster who earlier made this point.

There is no generalisation on my part about all EU immigrants, although I could certainly challenge yours, but it's not really the subject of this thread.

You know what, Aerfen, I don't actually know her that well... deffo not as well as you allege to. I feel bad about dragging someone else's story into this thread for someone to wildly speculate about, so I will bow out.

Millyonthefloss2
I am disgusted at the very thought of even contemplating using eu citizens as a bargaining chip, even if it is just a negotiation position it is utterly wrong

I agree.

Then I hope you will be every bit as 'disgusted' if the EU contemplates using British citizens settled in the EU as 'bargaining chips'???

AT present while British polticians have at least made reassuring noised to EU citizens here, there has been NO corresponding reassurance to British migrants who now call he EU their 'home'. Are you concerned about them? Would you be prepared to sell them down river by allowing EU citizens unqualified rights to remain here if the EU itself decides to spitefully expel some or all British citizens?

Teresa May is absolutely right to play hardball at this stage, given that this does appear to be the approach of the EU. Her first duty is to British citizens and only secondly to citizens of foreign countries.

aerfen - but why discuss one person (that you don't know)? That's not how government policies work! Who is "desirable" in your opinion?

lljkk
You know what, Aerfen, I don't actually know her that well... deffo not as well as you allege to. I feel bad about dragging someone else's story into this thread for someone to wildly speculate about, so I will bow out

Sorry if I got the wrong impression. Perhaps you dont know her well enough to say with confidence that her son doesnt speak any German or that she's staying here for his benefit then. That's OK.

Aerfen are you one if those angry people that comments on DM stories about immigration

So do you think that if I split up from DH, then lost my job or was no longer able to work due to illness that I should go back to where I came from, having worked here most of my adult life, with 2 DCs born and attending school here?

Allegretto, same reason other posters have discussed her on this thread. There were several seemed to think she should be allowed to stay. I agreed with the poster who said she is exactly the type we DONT want!

It is relevant to Government policy because leaving the EU means we will not be obliged to provide benefits and homes to NEW useless immigrants like her. We will be able to select only those immigrants who benefit us and do not drain resources.

Unfortunately the German woman will be able to remain, and many parasitic immigrants like here, on the basis that she has stayed long enough to claim citizenship.

Rules should be far tighter and we should adopt a similar stance to Germany who only allow citizenship to those who earn at least average wage. A single British mum in Germany would not be granted citizenship in her circumstances. It is to some extent the fault of our own Government that Britain has been turned into a milk cow for undesirable EU immigrants.

(Trying hard to bite my tongue at your unpleasant language).

So presumably you feel just the same about Brits living in the EU? Those who are low-waged or disabled or elderly are a drain and should be sent back to the UK?

FarAwayHills
Of course not, and you need have no anxiety on that score as you are entitled to seek British citizenship. In fact I am shocked that after all these years you haven't already done so. Your position and that of the German single mum are objectively different.

And how exactly is the UK a "milk cow" for EU immigrants when they are outnumbered by the Brits living abroad in the EU?

"So presumably you feel just the same about Brits living in the EU? Those who are low-waged or disabled or elderly are a drain and should be sent back to the UK?"

That is EU law. Every country does have the right to return those who are a drain on the welfare system and are not looking for work or are unlikely to find it. Most countries do not suffer welfare tourism of this kind because, as I explained earlier, their benefit systems to those who haven't made previous contributions are less generous. We have the most generous IN WORK benefits in the EU too.

Consequently other countries are largely not affected by 'welfare tourism' in this way (Sweden excepted) and I suggest the number of Britons who fall into the categories you describe are few, they are better off back here!
As regards sending them back though that should be entirely the decision of the countries where they reside, its not our business,

No, Aerfen...

We do not have the most generous in work benefits. That's coming from someone who never would qualify for one.

There is NO evidence of welfare tourism encouraging eu migrants to the UK. Cameron was asked to provide evidence after citing this as a reason for negotiating a better deal and was unable to. As you point out under EU law you can be turned back for not seeking work so you are contradicting yourself. Statistically EU immigrants are more likely to be in work and less likely to be claiming any sort of welfare. Maybe we should be looking at keeping them and persuading the non-working Brits to leave?! Your argument does not make any sense economically so I can only conclude you just don't want forriners!

I agree. If you want some generous welfare benefit, you don't come to the UK.
As for the IN WORK benefit, can I remind you that even the governemnt said these benefits are there to subsidised companies, I've they can pay low wages to worker whilst the state is barely keeping them afloat. (There was some ta look abut reducing that btw to push companies to pay workers more)
So it can also be that in other countries there are less IN WORK benefit because there are other laws oin place that guarantee a better minimum wage which then means less need of having some benefits for those who are working.
Serioulsy, it has been said again and again by politicians about how generous the state is. It is not.

Arefen why would anyone get a British citizenship if they don't need to?
No EU citizen needed that. The only reason to get it would have been to be able to vote. That's it. Nothing else.
Do you really think that after xx years, then someone automatically shoould feel they are from the country they live in for example?

As for the German woman, are you saying that you would be happy to split a family up, ensure that children will not be able to see their mum, or only very occasionally? You are talking about her as 'parasite' but have thought about the children that will be extremely affected by your rethorics too? Are you happy to separate them from the RP? (Remember the Courts will have decided already that said children have to stay in the UK) And will you be happy to pay for all the MH problems they might develop later on too for example?
Nothing is as clear cut as it seems....

Regarding in-work benefits... because minimum wages in the UK are so low compared to wealthy EU countries, all that it is doing is to level the playing field a little. Still not enough though, considering life in the UK was more expensive. If you're working age, in jobs that pay little, you'd rather be anywhere else but the UK.

EverythingWillBeFine
"I agree. If you want some generous welfare benefit, you don't come to the UK"
I made no claim that overall British benefits are the most generous, they are not, but access to benefits is easier in Britain than most EU countries and we are among the more generous. In work benefits ar particularly generous .
I also made no claim that most EU immigrants are primarily welfare tourists, most are not, but this German woman is and she is by no means unique.
Do try not to make crude generalisations.

As for the IN WORK benefit, can I remind you that even the governemnt said these benefits are there to subsidised companies
The reason why they are there is irrelevant. The point is many EU immigrants are in minimum wage jobs and thus benefitting from them, and we are specifically talking about the German mother who as a part time worker with a child will be getting very generous subsidies.

"why would anyone get a British citizenship if they don't need to?
No EU citizen needed that"
There are many reasons why large numbers nevertheless do:

1. To vote
2. Out of psychological commitment to this country, her marriage, her life.
3. Permanent right of residence and the help of the British consul if in trouble overseas.
4. Right to represent Britain in international competitions.

Aerfen - I admire your dedication to not making generalisations. I mean most government ministers would look at the system as a whole, work out whether we actually lost out ecnomically due to eu migrants coming here (clue: we don't) and act accordingly. You seem to have taken it on yourself to judge every single case on its own merits - good luck with that, I hope you have a lot of spare time.

SnowBell
Interesting graph in that it shows income after housing costs (although not after living costs unfortunately) and we can see that discounting Luxembourg which is tiny and offers little in the way of work for unskilled immigrants, Britain is behind only Austria, Germany and Ireland. Germany and Ireland which have attracted large numbers of immigrants too, but I suggest somewhat fewer because the overall 'package' on offer is less appealing and the hospitability towards immigrants is less.