Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

[FarAwayHills]

We are being used as bargaining chips in the negotiations with the EU. Teresa May is playing hard ball by not giving any guarantees. So we get to spend the next few months in worried limbo while they play party politics and then swan off on holidays for a few weeks. You couldn't make it up

[Aerfen]

OF course we shouldnt guarantee an unqualified right to remain. We should say they will be granted a right to remain provided British citizens are granted rights to remain in the EU.

This will encourage EU citizens to support their own polticians who are Brit friendly, rather than those who would seek to punish British migrants.

[Aerfen]

So we get to spend the next few months in worried limbo while they play party politics and then swan off on holidays for a few weeks.

I shouldnt panic too much Faraway, since, chances are, agreement will be reached. It's very clear British politicians do not want to throw out existing EU citizens, so problems will only arise if the EU side choose to use British migrants as 'bargaining chips'

[FarAwayHills]

I hope so Aerfen although I'm not hopeful of an agreement any time soon.

[Aerfen]

EssentialHummus
angelos that's a slippery slope argument - 85 year old John and Mary from Hampshire are precisely the kind of people that the Costa del Sol doesn't need, but that didn't stop them going over there. Fuck knows what it's costing the Spanish taxpayer etc...

Wrong on two accounts, firstly look up the meaning of a 'slippery slope argument', you are misusing it.
Secondly British pensioners in Spain are not a drain on the Spanish taxpayer, quite the opposite, they bring their own income and capital from Britain, and nor do they get free healthcare, Spain doenst have an NHS free at the point of delivery as we do, and the Spanish Government reclaims costs from the UK.
In fact John and Mary contribute to the Spanish economy by purchasing goods there and very possibly paying people to care for them.

In contrast lljks German single mother is nothing but a drain on Britain's resources and unfortunately will not be sent home following Brexit as she has a right to claim citizenship now! What a mess!

[crossroads3]

will not be sent home

The UK is now her home. We are all human.

[Aerfen]

FarAway
If Britain's going to go to hell in a handcart as many of the angry Bremainers would have us believe, then undoubtedly you'll be glad to go back home,
or to Germany? Lucky you then to have EU citizenship! LOL

[penisbeakerlaminateflooringetc]

@Aerfen: For all we know she might have contributed before losing a job and having to claim benefits. The dad of the child might be British? Should she take the child to live in Germany where the dad can't have access?

I very much doubt a German single mother would chose to live in the uk by choice.

[crossroads3]

Leaving aside how offensive your post is aerfen, if someone has settled here and they then come upon hard times, do we immediately ship them back to where they came from regardless of the fact that their whole life is here now?

And yes we are fellow humans rather than separated by our "nationality". The whole ship them back once they are no longer viable approach is inhumane.

Added to which the changes which Cameron managed to negotiate would have meant that people who might be coming just for benefits, were only going to be able to receive them after 4 years in work.

[Lweji]

Our welfare system was designed for British citizens not to support the waifs and strays of Europe.

And yet you're happy to take people who have been trained abroad at the expense of those countries.

[lljkk]

... In case you wondered, the German single mum lived in Britain with English boyfriend since her son (who has German dad) was 6 months old. When she broke up with the boyfriend last yr, she wanted to stay in England for her son's sake (the only country the boy has known). She wants to work more hrs, but lacks the earning potential to cover childcare cost.

I bet there are plenty British people in similar situations in other EU countries. So we'll be happy to have them sent back here, right?

[Lweji]

And the boy, if he stays in England, is likely to contribute during his work years towards Aerfen's retirement.

[MangoMoon]

As a Leaver who has not wavered in my resolve, I have to say that aerfen doesn't speak for me!

I'm pretty certain that a lot of people would think that they were the views of someone with extremely low emotional intelligence or indeed empathy.

[SnowBells]

angeles02

Oh, you will get your massive change, dear. Don't worry. Just in a different way than you probably hoped to, i.e. the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer.

Funny that - the British finally want to rebell against the establishment and voted against the very institution that probably tried distributing wealth more in this country.

Oh the irony.

[Aerfen]

Lweji
You're forgetting population growth
Every country needs children or migrants. What you don't want is an increasingly elderly population that can't be supported by those in work

You are using the ageing population argument as a jutification for mass immigration. Thi is an argument which has been debunked time and time again.
Furthermore you are mendaciously quoting Migration Watch statistics when MW certainly does not support large scale immigration, quite the contrary, they want to greatly reduce immigration and use a points system.

Let me explain why immigration is not a solution.

The demographic age balance of the past has been based upon a population which is both continuously growing, and where people died on average at a significantly younger age than now.

Now I am sure you will agree that it is simply unsustainable for human populations to grow indefinitely, so at some point, we have to face up to the reality that populations are going to be substantially 'older' than now. Even in Third World countries with their youthful populations this 'ageing' of the demographic is beginning. China is anticipating difficulties and it wont be long before other Asian countries are too.

Consider too that if Britain sucks in young immigrants from countries such as Poland, which themselves have rapidly ageing populations, then who is going to support the 'old Poles'?

And secondly as immigrants age too, and as our new bloated population begins in say three to four decades, to face exactly the same problems that we face now, we will be even worse placed with a larger and poorer population to cope with this economic shift. There is a real risk it would lead to calls for culling (murder) of the elderly when they can no longer take care of themselves (as ever the wealthy elites would be exempt).

[lljkk]

China was a "second world" country in the 1970s and now gets described as "middle income." Never been in the "third world" category.

I think insinuating compulsory enthanasia as a result of not Brexiting is my favourite Brexit claim so far.

[Aerfen]

I very much doubt a German single mother would chose to live in the uk by choice

I was somewhat surprised at that too, but lljkks friend clearly does.

I suspect the reason is that she enjoys better benefits here since although German benefits are very generous too, theyre not non contributory as ours are. She would have to work first. The poster has already said she didnt work in Germany either.

The argument that it's for her sons benefit is nonsense. Young children adapt easily (as is shown by all the migrants bringing their kids here often without any English) and I would be very surprised if he doesn't understand German, since this would mean he couldn't communicate with his German grandparents aunts and uncles. Since the mother is single he would surely benefit from being nearer his extended family.

[Aerfen]

China was a "second world" country in the 1970s and now gets described as "middle income." Never been in the "third world" category.
I didn't say it was, which was why I spoke of it in a separate sentence

[Aerfen]

I think insinuating compulsory enthanasia as a result of not Brexiting is my favourite Brexit claim so far
Your comprehension skills need some work lljkk.
I suggested no direct causative link.

[SnowBells]

I suspect the reason is that she enjoys better benefits here since although German benefits are very generous too.

Aerfen - People already pointed out before... she moved to the UK for a boyfriend years ago, broke up with him last year. Kid grew up here and presumably doesn't even speak German.

Things like this happen to the best of us. Even JK Rowling.

[lljkk]

The poster has already said she didnt work in Germany either.

I said no such thing. I gather this gal worked as a hairdresser in Germany. But couldn't find that work in UK that would pay for childcare, too.
I have a weird habit of believing what people say to me & not second-guessing their motives according to my political beliefs.

[OlennasWimple]

I think EU citizens here before we invoke Article 50 should be able to stay, unless the answer is "yes" to either of a) did they enter the UK illegally; and b) do they have a criminal record here or in another country

[Lweji]

Aerfen

Small population growth at this stage is not a problem, on the contrary, whereas population reduction is, which would be likely in the UK with no migration at all.