Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

Faraway - I didn't comment about her being a fast breeder etc but I was illustrating the point that the immigrants do take out of our system and I don't think they are always an asset.

Wasn't my granny Jodie. She isn't a blood relative on my side.

How do you KNOW she's having children irresponsibly?

Who is the referee of what is responsible?
How do you know her circumstances? How do you know it was her choice to have that extra child?

well for a start, I never use the word Chav, it's horrible
and secondly I am more than happy for my tax to pay for British kids from deprived background who need education and healthcare and other interventions

No kid should be punished because some people consider their parents the wrong sort. Or because their parents had more kids than they can support

The kids don't chose that.

All kids should have basic opportunities, I don't care who "bred" them

I think it was the fact that the Dc was behaving badly and who lets their dc throw stones at a glass door for a few minutes and doesn't do anything, then the actual cost of the medicine. Not just one £8.50'prescription.

I think we have enough people already who need free prescriptions and welfare who are British. The whole thing is unsustainable and tbh that's why people voted out in the vain hope that their could be more control over immigration.

AdultingIs
well for a start, I never use the word Chav, it's horrible

Most of your fellow middle class pro mass immigrationists who wish to censor language used about immigrants have no such qualms.

On your other point, the description of 'fast breeders' and 'breeding like rabbits' is used about the parents NOT the children (although many of them grow up to be equally irresponsible), so your comments are a red herring.

I think we have enough people already who need free prescriptions and welfare who are British
That was a pregnant woman. All get free prescriptions. For all we know she isn't even on benefits.
Immigrants on the whole need less benefits than Brits.
And benefits are a red herring. Benefits are mostly a method of compensating low salaries and providing support for those who can't work.

If the cap fits Aerfen...

Also "the proportion on in work benefits is higher", well lets take that to task.

Looking at direct percentages yes, that is true, 11% of UK households are on WTCs but 14% of households with one person who was an EU national on being issued and NI number was. But that is the issue, isn't "one EU national" in the household. It means that there is a UK national in the household too, yet for the purpose of this you are only counting the EU national, yet again because it suits you to do so.

"while the majority are workign in minimum wage jobs draining resources"

Hiwever this is where you are hoist by your own petard, if only 14% of Eu nationals live in households that qualify for WTCs it means that they are not just working in minimum wage jobs, or the ones that are in MW jobs will be the young who do not tend to use schools, hospitals etc, and therefore are not a drain on resources.

You can have an opinion, it doesn't give it equal validity.

But that is the issue, isn't "one EU national" in the household. It means that there is a UK national in the household too, yet for the purpose of this you are only counting the EU national, yet again because it suits you to do so

Certainly does not. Many EU nationals are living with non EU nationals!
This is particularly the case for EU nationals who are of immigrant background.

Many EU nationals are Somalis, Africans, Algerians etc. And there are certainly many 'white' EU nationals who have settled with non EU nationals too some of the latter passport hunters and some even engaging in marriages of convenience for passport purposes. This is a huge problem in Britain and those caught are just the tip of the iceberg.

Immigrants on the whole need less benefits than Brits.

That is a lie.
Immigrants claim far more benefits than Brits once pensions are taken out of the welfare bill.

Of immigrant groups its is only
EU immigrants
"White" Commonwealth and US immigrants (mostly doing skilled jobs)
who contribute more in taxes than they take in benefits.

Other non EU immigrants have higher rates of unemployment, larger families, more likely to be living in social housing and more likely to be claiming both in work and out of work benefits!

Why do you imagine they are so frequently described as 'disadvantaged' living in 'deprivation' etc?

Even those who arrived as 'highly skilled migrants' more often than not, and for numerous reasons, do not work in their skill area, but remain unemployed or work in unskilled occupations such as taxi driving.

I am speechless to read the kind of language and opinions expressed on this thread.

In my country Britain has always been admired for its strength of democracy, tolerance and liberalism.

Where is all this going to end?

Aerfen

To suggest we should not use past experience to make educated guesses is to suggest we all behave like silly naive eighteen year olds with no experience of life!

It seems to be only you who is allowed to make educated guesses based on past experience. When we do, you think it's all bullshot and generalisation. You are talking about ONE mother at a pharmacist.

I went to school with many first generation Poles... most of whom are now lawyers and doctors (including one neurosurgeon) in Germany. One of them went to university in the US, got a green card, worked there and is now back in Germany in a "Head of" role, because she married her high school sweetheart. None of them have more than 2 kids.

Bullshit. Fat fingers.

The thing is I'm not saying that all of them are not making a valid contribution and you cannot lump everyone together but it needs overhauling.

So you now admit that EU immigrants contribute more than they take out? Thank you.

I do notice that you change the goal posts every time you get proved wrong, first it was EU immigrants, then it was Eastern Europeans, then you concentrate on just Roma, now its non EU immigrants.

Wriggle and twist to try to make yourself right, it won't work, your nasty prejudices are being shown up for what they are.

"Many EU nationals are living with non EU nationals!"

This figure is dealt with in the entire immigrant based figure, which would be that:

"In March 2014 738,900 families who were in receipt of tax credits
(15.9% of the total) contained at least one adult who was a non-UK
national at NINo registration."

As immigrants make up 14% of the population, but a larger than that proportion of the workforce, 16.7% that would mean that they are UNDER represented on this statistic but only marginally.

As for social housing, only 9% of social housing is taken up by immigrants. That's total immigrants, not just EU so again immigrants are under represented in social housing.

You ever get tired of being wrong?

Small are you addressing me?

I'm not bothered if you disagree or believe to prove me wrong with figures.

I think a lot of people want the mass immigration to cease or slow down because it is having a negative impact on their life. If they need social housing or a school place for their dc. It feels too crowded in the S E.

I've reported Aerfen's hate speech. The fact that she feels she's able to write so openly like that shows how bad the level of discourse has become.
Not accepting hate speech is not a freedom of speech issue, it's about speaking up for people who are vilified, alienated and dehumanised.

The spiel of "you must let people say racist things without calling them racist, lest they become racists" is nonsensical.
At least own your position.

Woodhill, I meant what if your granny had been in the place of the pregnant woman. Or your grandad, or your great-aunt Doris, or any other elderly person who you care about. It's a hypothetical argument to try and engage your empathy for a group of people you are happy to 'other'. How would you feel if your granny was talked about in that way, for receiving a large amount of free prescriptions? Because elderly people do, without any requirement for means testing. I'm trying to point out that immigrants are people.

I'm sorry Tiggy, the nasty prejudices were blatantly outlined here when the poster in question uses the language that she does,.

Your apologist language not withstanding, it is a genuine fact that the people of the UK THINK immigration is too high, but they also think that it is a lot higher than it actually is. The whole of the discourse of this debtate has been dominated by a reactionary press that screams about immigration issues and misrepresents the data.

Your point about "facts and figures" is fallacious because the only way to deal with this debate is to discuss the realities of the situation vs the way it is discussed in the media and in places like this. It is vitally important that when people say "its too full" or that they think that school places and NHS waiting times are being detrimentally effected by immigration, or that these people are a burden, that we present the real facts and figures.

When it comes to discussing this issue yes we should discuss it, but we should be talking about the facts, and not feelings and fears that are not based on said facts. The reason we need to use them is because facts give and overall picture and not make major decisions based on myopic experience and anecdotal information.

Saying that we must make decisions based on people's fears is like saying: " Zombies don't exist, but fear of zombies is an all time high so lets something to tackle zombies."

And yes, I will challlenge the hate speech that has been used here, as much as I like.