Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

I'm just waiting to hear who has to pay for the100.000s of flights? Oh,.yes, I bet it is the UK taxpayers.

Interestingly EU citizens are less likely to use health services than their British counterparts because of what is called the healthy migrant effect, and Oxford University found than increases in immigration caused lower A and E waiting times and lower elective treatments waiting times in almost all areas, except very deprived ones outside of London, and only then between 2004 and 2008 when this trend ceased.6

I note you fail to mention the mechanism of this counter intuitive effect.

1. An increase in immigration causes some of the wealthier natives to go private i.e. queues start getting worse so they go elsewhere.
2. An increase in population results in NHS trusts being allocated more money, and because the immigrants are younger than average and thus their health needs are lower it means that the general popualtion enjoy a temporary benefit from the extra funding.Though calling it the 'healthy migrant effect" is rather misleading the "younger migrants effect" would be more honest, and it does rather point to the poltical agenda of the reserachers.

Their names confirm: Osea Giuntella, Catia Nicodemo,Carlos Vargas Silva. The Compas group at Oxford (centre for migration research) by its nature attracts foreigners and those with an enthusiams for immigration.

"Your arguments are crap and stand up to no scrutiny, and even your use of data is deeply flawed."

ROFL. Oh the irony!
Foxy needs to learn that she doesn't enhance her arguments by abusing her opponents, she needs to learn to make arguments that stand on their own merit

A relative was behind a Lady with 3 dc and visibly pregnant. her ds was being unruly and throwing rocks against the glass door but was not challenged. The pharmacist told my relative afterwards that this lady had just been given £100 of free medication as she did not have to pay for her prescription. No wonder the NHS is in deficit. The pharmacist was not happy nor my relative.

I think we are being taken for a ride and it needs to stop.

"Hardly suckling at the tit."

You also need to factor in:
The saving to Poland of having passed its unemployed to Britain.
Polands unemployment costs have dropped likea stone, sinec any unemployed young Pole now just leaves!

Then there are the remittances sent back to relatives by workers in Britain, as well as foreign currency brought in when they set up a saving account in Poland to pay for a house back home!

Your fantasy won't play out Angelos, but you can keep thinking about it.

Who will pay to get out all of the EU immigrants?

Who will pay for the loss in tax revenue which won't be replicated by a fall in demand for services?

Who will pay for the loss of 5% of the workforce and subsequent loss of skills and cost push inflation.

You will love.

The UK gets 50bn its self a year in remittances.

If Poland has to take into consideration its loss of unemployed the UK has to take into consdideration the increased tax take. Not just from income tax but from VAT, and the subsequent multiplier effect of immigration.

The UK still wins.

Do you ever get tired of losing?

Woodhill.
Do you know where this fast breeding immigrant was from? Four kids! Eek!
We are getting a lot of non EU immigrant coming in now, thank to EU passports! Africans, Algerians, Iraqis, Somalis, Brazilians.

The UK gets 50bn its self a year in remittances

Source?
These are NOT primarily from people who are 'immigrants' to other countries, but British people who are working on contract in Dubai, Singapore and such like so they are not a burden on those countries resources.

Do you ever get tired of losing?
I allow readers of the boards to be the judge of who is 'losing'.

My relative thought Poland or Romania but not certain. Yes one particular group you mention Aerfen of non EU origin seem particularly ineffective and Inactive.

Also I read on another thread that taxes can be reclaimed at home if the migrant does not work the full tax year. Surely this is open to abuse and means if the tax is being claimed back then there is no contribution to the treasury

" note you fail to mention the mechanism of this counter intuitive effect.

1. An increase in immigration causes some of the wealthier natives to go private i.e. queues start getting worse so they go elsewhere."

The Oxford study says that as the UK citizens that move do go elsewhere, but not all to the same location this is not the case.

Care to provide your data proving otherwise?

Your continual attacks on those that provide the data but failure to add any of your own debilitates your argument.

My arguments stand on merit, yours fail to do so at all.

Its funny, but also good fun. :)

"the UK has to take into consdideration the increased tax take"
That was what the original Lords study was about!
You cannot count it twice!

"Not just from income tax but from VAT, and the subsequent multiplier effect of immigration"
Multiplier effect is v. dubious but fair point about increased VAT to treasury, however if goign down to this barely guestimable level then we must also take into account the loss of foreign currency caused by the higher level of imports of immigrant specific products! Just how much do we lose (and Poland gain) from all the imports into the Polski Skleps, not to mention Tyskie beer and Polish vodka in the ethno specific (racist?) Polish bars and clubhouses now ubiquitous in our towns?

Anyway, I am off now to watch
www.channel4.com/info/press/news/polish-drama-the-border-to-premiere-on-channel-4

"Its funny, but also good fun"

Yep I love an argument, especially amusing when my opponent keeps having temper tantrums and patting herself on the bacK!

"Multiplier effect is v. dubious"

Nope its a fact, nothing dubious about the fact that a working person over here creates increased AD.

All the rest of the stuff you talk about also increased GDP because without the sales of it, it wouldn't be as high.

The point about tax take, is that you asked about Poland losing the unemployed and in that case the UK has to take into account the increased tax take.

My points above about benefits dispel any illusions you have about the extent of benefit claims and the how much is contributed.

Notice you haven't come up with any yourself, just more non evidence backed, non peer reviewed assertions. All of the things I have claimed are evidence backed and all of the University studies peer reviewed and corroborated.

"Care to provide your data proving otherwise?"

Quote from the Compas study you cited:
"Because of immigration natives may move (or seek care) in a different local authority or seek care in the private sector decreasing the pressure on local authorities where immigration is surging"

Now off to watch Border

Woodhill, if true, I hope that pharmacist loses their job. No health care professional should be commenting on one patient to another.

But that doesn't prove that there is a weight being put on others. It also states that as natives that move do not concentrate in specific areas so their impact on health services in negligible.

Did you read the bit about 19% reduction in A and E times?

I also notice that since I was able to dismiss your discussion of the impact of immigrants on benefits you have gone strangely quiet and attempted to redirect the conversation.

No she shouldn't have but ooh he/she may be sick of seeing it on a regular basis. Plus the Dc throwing rocks at the door.

"In particular, we show that an increase in the stock of
immigrants equal to 10% of the local initial population leads to a 19% reduction in outpatient waiting times. "

Oh I see, they threw the rocks because they're foreign. Yes, that makes it alright to a) share medical information, and b), do it in a disparaging way

Yes, of course the mum should have stopped them. However, I take it you have parented perfectly at all times?

How would you feel, looking after 3 young kids all day, heavily pregnant, likely exhausted if you have a medical condition requiring that many meds, to hear yourself belittled in this way? You do realise that woman is an actual human being? Speaking another language doesn't make you incapable of feelings. (And before you say it, I'm sure the pharmacist in this case waited until the woman was out of earshot. Like a coward.)

And seeing what on a regular basis - pregnant women getting free medicine? I should hope so, it's part of their job - all pregnant women are entitled to the same. As are children, people with certain long-term conditions, and the elderly. None of these are means-tested, and the last group are certainly disproportionately represented.

Would you feel the same if your granny had been the first one in the queue getting her bundle of meds and the pharmacist had then bitched to the next person about all the free pills she was getting?

Aerfen

I don't think you have to think about the Eastern Europeans for too long. Tech companies have already been setting up in Warsaw, because Poland actually produces the high number of engineers they need. One of the reasons these companies liked London was because it is cosmopolitan and within the EU, which meant that they could recruit the best people from within the EU. With a much smaller talent pool, London may no longer be so attractive. Maybe Brexit will make these companies recruit more people in places like Warsaw rather than London.

One day, it might be the British coming to knock on their door and I hope they will treat the British better than the British treated them.