Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

Oh btw, you're beloved Romanians? There are about 128,000 Romanian Immigrants in the UK, of these 1,000 claimed JSA last year.

0.7% of the population.

Sorry, join you? Who are you recruiting for?

No thanks. If you think that my children are less important than yours and are taking your children's place in schools, and if you think that I am abusing YOUR NHS and benefits, I won't join you. I will do my very best to oppose you.

Sfox
I am surprised you dont know the difference between Roma and Romanians. Roma are gypsies and they are not all citizens of Romania, many are from the Czech Republic, Slovakia and small numbers from other EE countries.
I did not 'ask' about immigrants contribution to infrastructure, I reminded you they hadnt, for generations, so no the fact that British kids havent and 'ex pats' may not have (actually many have) , does not refute my point, their parents, their grandparents and their ancestors through the ages have built this country.

"...is destroyed by the point that you seek to hold immigrants to this country to". Quite apart from the bad grammar this clause makes no sense.

"Your argument regarding immigrants seems to be based entirely on benefits..."
Believe me Ive many arguments, but they are not matters that have arisen on this thread, where we have drifted from the question posed by the OP to the more general one of whether immigrants (who are not citizens) should be allowed to continue to receive welfare benefits after a Brexit, i.e we are discussing benefits.

Perhaps you were hoping I would challenge your claims about the cost of benefits being small, rather than as I did, choose to make the point that even if they are small we still shouldnt be paying them to foreigners? Certainly we shouldnt when that money is much needed by our own poorest, not to mention the NHS, schools struggling under the weight of numbers, Britsih students who cannot get funding for post grad degrees (to name but afew better ways to spend it).

BUt if its figures you want here we go:
GOV: Best of both Worlds:
At its peak in 2013-2014, we estimate that we were paying nearly £700 million a year to out-of-work EEA nationals on Jobseekers Allowance and Housing Benefit alone.
However thanks to Cameron's tightening up on new arrivals this figure has hopefully fallen somewhat.

In reality a BIGGER problem is IN WORK BENEFITS, an area in which Britain is very generous, and this is exactly what the German single mother mentioned earlier is raking in!

^EU nationals are taking up welfare provision in the UK. Government figures show that around 40 per cent of recent EEA migrants are in households supported by the benefit system .On average, families with a recent EEA migrant claim almost £6,000 per year in tax credits, and of these, around 8,000 families receive more than £10,000. Of the £25 billion
the UK spent in 2013-2014 on in-work benefits for workers on low incomes, around £2.5 billion went to EEA migrants. This represents 10 per cent of spending, even though people from the EEA make up only around 6 per cent of the UK work force.

We would be mad, utterly mad, to continue to support them at this level when we leave the EU.

blue you must be paying a hell of a lot into the UK tax pot to have such a confident attitude?

But we will.

Oh and criticising grammar on an internet forum is bad form, I'm not typing my dissertation, I'm writing from the sofa on a phone.

The point was intended to be that you keep repeating that immigrants to this country have made no contribution to infrastructure, yet then say that our migrant retirees are "self sufficient" when they have made no contribution to infrastructure either, you can't hold one group accountable if you are not going to consider it for the other.

Your arguments about benefits are facetious because you are dealing with miniscule figures in terms of the overall fiscal figures we are discussing.

£700 million from a benefits budget of about £251 Bilion, is a bout 0.2%. You also fail to consider than in the most cases people are on benefits for short amounts of time.

You mentioned Romanians and Roma dear, I just dealt with one group.

Like your referencing of Encoh Powell too.

Oh and your quote there about in work benefits has been challenged in the past and isn't accurate. From the governments own data from the report published 2016, it comes up with the figure that 6.8% of the claimaints of tax credits were from Households that have at least 1 EU citizen in them, now this aso means people that are in relationships with British Nationals.

"HMRC estimates that the annual tax credits entitlements for families
containing at least one non-UK national at NINo registration came to
£5.2 billion in 2013/14, or 17.4% of the total £29.7bn.

Now that's total immigration, and as immigrants are more likely to be of working age, less likely to be retired, they make up about 16.7% of the workforce, so its broadly in line with the figure above.

Rant and rave all you like, you're wrong on this issue.

Aerfen

Those claiming for in work benefits are eligible to do so because of a daft system our governments have created allowing employers to pay low wages which are topped up by tax credits. How about we look at some of the companies that make huge profits, while having their wage bill subsidised by the taxpayers?

It seems someone here is writing xenophobic general statements against East Europeans and it needs reporting .Why saying that Romanians are unemployable or parasites. What a horrible statement to say about an entire ethnic group .
Also what is with only high earners being of value to the country . Carers working in old people homes may need tax credits but they do an invaluable job . And many other jobs are also invaluable .Those jobs the long term unemployed are unwilling to do or unable to do them due to their complex needs to access the labour market or due to being trapped in welfare. These jobs at the moment need migration to be able to run their services efficiently and to improve the economy . Maybe in the future more local people are trained or willing to do these job, etc but all that takes time . Often it is a problem of local people being trapped in welfare with children so unable to take temporary positions etc without losing money they can't afford to lose .
But anyway Romanians are just the same that British. A few maybe unemployable but no human being is a parasite just because they can't earn enough or pay enough taxes.
Also what with the German single mum . She probably was a stay at home mum if she didnt need to work so I would imagine the partner ( now ex) was working and paying lots taxes for them as a family while they all settle and make the UK their home . It was legal to do so, people have settle with the believe that they could settle here as in EU rules, often with British partners , had children, studied here, bought houses, furniture and their entires lives are invested here now . Of course They have a right to be worried as their entires lives could be turned upside down . Everything They have invested in their lives, created families etc believing they will be able to settle here ...they may not have bought a house or have a family etc if they knew that the UK could ever come out of the EU . Having to start elsewhere from nothing again is very hard, and having to leave their friends, families, home, etc. It is also quite scary .

Immigrants to this country have made no contribution to infrastructure'.^

Well, history differs on this. Just a couple of examples:
Joseph Bakzagetre built London Sewer network ; grandson of a French Protestant immigrant.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel built tunnels, trains, bridges, railways ; son of a Normandy refugee from the. French Revolution.

This 'German Lady on Benefits' might have some Angle or Saxon ancestors who came over during the Great Migrations. She might be more Eng Lish than some posters .

My point is that using the word 'ancestors' is non sense. All countries are built through migration.

Aerfen when a family gets tax credit and one is British and the other from an EU country . Do You know their children are British ? Why will These children should not get Child Tax Credits ? Whatever happens after the UK comes out of the EU . . those families will still get tax credits for their children and the British Parent . Even if one parent is not entitle to public funds. The rest of the family are entitle to tax credits and housing benefits like any other British family .

Due to my work and presence, a UK university got substantial EU project grants, as I'm sure has happened to several immigrant researchers.

But I suppose we're ok, unlike your average immigrant bus driver or factory worker.

It's all very well saying they give more than they cost but by being here in large numbers wages fall, no one needs to train up the Brits asthere is an endless number of cheaper more enthused incomers - society changes, for the worse for the lower paid.
No promises should be made to anyone.

Then No promises should be made to the million plus brits abroad, shall we have all of them back?

The pensioners will certainly increase pressure on the NHS.

The pensioners will certainly increase pressure on the NHS.
Particularly if the immigrant NHS staff have to leave.

But don't you realise Smallfox - those expat pensioners aren't a drain, they're contributing to the local economy. So we should we be grateful to have them back

Regarding the no one needs to train up the Brits . No They have to do it themselves obviously . Young people either go to Uni or do an apprenticeship for all types of jobs . Older people can study part time in college to learn some kind of professional job while taking care of young children through the government 24+ loans or even go back to uni if they want a career . Long term unemployed are usually the people that are hard to employ though due to complex issues or those that don't want to work despite being able to do so . Training those with complex issues takes a lot of time and a lot of money and time with variable results . Often it is better working with the children in these families to break the generational dependency and lack of prospect etc . So good schools and good training opportunities, also good youth services, for the children of these families is what is needed to change things . Local policies to encourage employing people from disvantages backgrounds will also help ( grants for employers for example to train local teens from poorer families ) and things like that . But anyway the UK is going to leave the EU so They should be able to just bring in whoever They need in the Future . It doesn't mean They have to throw out suddenly all those that are properly settle here , neither should the EU do that to Brits .

Really tricky for the government to sort I think. However I am of the firm opinion that all "illegals" should be removed. If they haven't come in through the proper channels they ought not to be kept by the tax payer. Even if they are not claiming they are using valuable resources within the NHS.

Illegals can't claim NHS use because they haven't got an NHS number, what with being illegal and all. They can maybe use A and E but won't recieve any further treatment or be able to register at a GP.

In fact Illegals use up very few national resources as they are generally off radar.

EU nationals are not illegals and they all have come through proper channels under EU law . They may become illegal If They change the law though even though They settle here, bought houses, studied, created a family,etc because They believe They will always be under EU rules . The same with UK citizens in the EU, They may have sold their properties in the UK, bought abroad, put children in local schools, open a business or work there and get a career abroad and if suddenly The rules change , nobody though the UK would come of the EU years ago, their lives would be turned upside down as They may have to go back to the UK, penniless, broke and unemployed . If millions of people leave a country ( either UK or Spain, France) everyone trying to sell houses,etc would cause a housing crash as well . Jobs would be loss and business too, and you will find thousands of people back into their countries in need of social housing, jobs, medical care,etc and unable to support themselves as unlikely their properties would be sold abroad or their businesses . It would be a disaster of high proportions really for the families and the areas taking them .
Regarding non EU nationals Someone can come from a propel channel and later on become an illegal . Example overstaying a visa. Someone may not come from a proper channel , for example a refugee on the back of a Lorry, and on arrival claim and become legal until their asylum application is either accepted or refused . Entry status is not always related with being legal in the UK later on .

smallfox2002 asked:
Then No promises should be made to the million plus brits abroad, shall we have all of them back?

Its clearly escaped your notice that no promises have been made to British citizens in the EU.
And that is precisely why our Government should be making no unqualified promises to EU citizens living here.

And that answers the OP, Teresa May & Andrea Leadsom should certainly be holding their cards close to their chests, since their first duty is not to safeguard the interests of EU citizens but to safeguard those of Brits lest the EU itself, or any country decides to play hardball.

In fact someone with vested interests (EU citizens or married to one) would be stupid enough to be promoting sucha commitment!

Lets consider this situation. The EU agrees to allow Brits to remain on the same terms as now. A few countries say we're not willing to let Brits have free health care because the terms under which we could collect the money from Britain have changed. Brexit is followed by Grexit and Greece says all non working Brits and other EUers have to leave.
So if our PM has meanwhile promised the world to EU immigrants living here, where does that leave those Brits? Yes forced to come home, because May/Leadsom has given away her bargaining chips!

Its a no brainer!

In fact someone with vested interests (EU citizens or married to one) would be stupid enough to be promoting such a commitment!

Correction
In fact only someone with vested interests (EU citizens or married to one) wouldnt be stupid to be promoting such a commitment!^

I don't think anyone is going to force anyone home. Actually I think current immigrants, and even those who migrate before the full exit of the EU will get right to remain.

It hasn't escaped my attention at all that British citizens have not been promised anything yet either.

Pains me to say it but I agree with you somewhat, but I don't think either side should be using people's lives as bargaining chips.

If you were there before brexit, you have the right to remain, same conditions, both sides should announce it.

Aerfen

Yet you chose to live here...

You really can't go any lower, can you?! It's none of your business, but I'm here because I happened to marry a Brit. Unfortunately, the education system in the UK is such that people don't tend to learn other languages well, which makes it slightly more difficult to move with a British DH. Is this why some British people don't value the EU much? Because if you don't learn other languages, how can you possibly value the EU as much as those who do speak more than just English (and who can benefit from the EU in return)?

DH and I happen to be in the top 5% (I'm told) in terms of combined household income (and currently, I earn more than him - not that you think I snagged a wealthy Brit away from a British woman). The 5% thing actually surprised me as our life is just way too normal for that. My living standard here is lower than what I was accustomed to growing up. My taxes alone pay someone's income. I use private GPs and dentists these days as the NHS isn't worth it (compared to what I'm used to elsewhere) and I also have private health insurance. I get zero back from "living in the UK".

If we moved elsewhere, DH would earn a lot more - because although we both get paid more than average here... even HR admitted to DH that his colleagues abroad doing the exact same job earn higher wages than in the UK. We'd have a bigger house. I have friends abroad who are SAHMs and their husbands do less stressful jobs... and they enjoy a better standard of living than us.

Yes, I want to escape this island one day. I don't want my children to grow up in a country that has cut itself off from Europe. It will take a while to get where we want to be. Hopefully, now that DH has seen his colleagues make the move, we can follow a few years down the line and leave Little England to the Little Englanders like you.

smallfox2002

Given that Germany's vice chancellor has already mentioned offering dual citizenship to Britons living in the EU, I think that's a no-brainer. In Germany's case, they'd have to tweak the law somewhat first though, as you can't normally have dual citizenship when living IN Germany (you can - if you meet set rules - if you live abroad).

I believe many of the EU leaders have made positive comments regarding British citizens remaining in the EU.

"You really can't go any lower, can you?"
Youve consistently presented bigoted stereotypes of me. Youve presented strawmen arguments misrepresenting me , and finally youve made offensive comments about my country and you say that I "can't go any lower" when I suggest you might like to return to Germany with your family! Your egocentric bigotry is truly astounding!

However as youre in the "top 5%" of earners it would seem this country has treated you very well, rather better than your homeland may have done!. What bare faced cheek youve got to be suggesting that Brexiters, who come from the 95% of Brits who are not in the "top 5%" of earners should not vote in our own interests, when you are nothing if not self serving!

Many immigrants come to Britain not speaking English and of course your husband could learn German, with the benefit of a German wife and extended German family to help him too! Frankly its a pathetic excuse not to go back while you claim the quality of life is so much better in Germany! Your children too would benefit hugely.