Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

There are so few EU migrants who are unemployed long term that it would make scant difference to the fiscal balance of the country.

That could easily change, especially if the economy goes down the pan as you Bremainers believe it will.

But that aside, the point is that we should not be incentivising EU immigrants who are not working to remain here, and certainly not permitting any to remain long term unemployed which some of the Roma in particular are doing.

Would you consider an acceptable compromise would be that their benefit should be cut off if they are still unemployed after say six weeks?
When we leave the EU then we will no longer have to use the same strict criteria for British citizens. Many EU countries only provide the equivalent of JSA for a fixed period anyway.

If there is a recession there is also likely to be a large fall in net migration as immigrants go home.

I'm not going to agree with you, cause quite frankly I think you're kicking up a fuss about a extremely small level of public spending and I think you keep referring to it because you're a xenophobe.

Oh and Migration watch do use statistics, but their reports have been found to be misleading and inaccurate on a number of occasions.

Along with every other organisation, such as the CREAM group at UCL who produced the misleading prediction of 13K Poles, and later another heavily criticised misleading report stating that 'up to half of all Poles may have gone home'! Clever wording, designed to mislead, and it did, numerous claims by the BBC and others in the media that 'half of all Poles HAD gone home'. Yes, I too prefer to conduct my own analysis because no source is unbiased.

And I will back this up.

You have turned a discussion about granting immigrants from the EU right to remain all about benefits, and have used the terms "scrounging" and "burden" on more than one occasion.

When pointed out that an extremely small number of people from the EU are actually on benefits, and that they can't come here and claim etc, you simply carry on.

When it is pointed out to you that there are more unemployed Brits in many EU countries than there are here, you change the argument to be about EE people, and keep referring to a stereotype of Roma/Romainian people.

You also won't accept any point about the UK citizens living in the EU, they are all "self supporting", but try to use data from the HOL report about immigrants to prove your point. Applying the same terms as the HOL report the retired in Spain are certainly "burdens" on the economy as they pay relatively little tax but still benefit from policing, rule of law, property rights, defence, you know all the public goods the HOL and Migration Watch want to include in the "benefits" EU citizens here get.

I think you keep referring to it because you're a xenophobe

And I think youve just made that remark because youre a bigot!
Hey isnt playground insult hurling fun?
You cannot respect that others hold perfectly reasonable but nevertheless different views to yourself. We've been seeing plenty of that bigotry from the hard core Bremainers of late.

"When it is pointed out to you that there are more unemployed Brits in many EU countries than there are here, you change the argument to be about EE people, and keep referring to a stereotype of Roma/Romainian people."

Irrelevant. Unemployment doesnt equate with 'claiming benefits'.
Pensioners are 'unemployed' but they are contributing more than they take from the countries to which they retire.

You would have to prove that there were more Britons claiming benefits in the EU than there are EU immigrants claiming benefits here, to prove that Britain wasnt losing out in thsi respect by EU membership.

You will not be able to do this because its not the case.

Umm, you don't get to use that term, thanks. In no way have I ever said anything bigoted, you are the one with you stereotypes about Roma people etc, you are the one that keeps focusing on a very small minority of people and use derogatory language regarding immigrants.

Your opinions are not "reasonable".

Pensioners are not unemployed, they are economically inactive.

Good to know you understand the topics you are debating.

Yet again, Aerfen proves that she still hasn't got the point that it isn't all about money - otherwise she wouldn't have told Snowbells that "yet you choose to live here...", just because she might have a better standard of living in Germany.

My parents emigrated to NZ in the 70s. We had a fantastic standard of living - lovely house, big disposable income partly because there wasn't much to spend your money on. Yet we chose to emigrate back again (our 3rd emigration ) because Mum and Dad preferred the politics and values in Scotland. We had to buy a smaller house and for a while they were literally drawing cash from one credit card in order to pay off the other fortunately only short term. Smaller disposable income here - but they had no regrets.

It's this sort of blinkered thinking and the assumption that the UK is a magnet for scroungers as opposed to home for many (who are not necessarily here for the "benefits") that we need to guard against.

If you are a net contributor (£20k per person) you are more than welcome to stay. That is per person & not counting people that can't afford private education or health care. Otherwise, you are a drain. Sorry for stating the obvious

Tell you what, HMRC data says that £2.5bn more in tax was paid by new immigrants than they claimed in benefits.

If we remove the benefits paid to the 30,000 or so British people unemployed in the EU, we are then paying for an extra 34,000 people to be on benefits.

The 2.5 billion more than covers that.

Even the HOL found that immigrants are net fiscal contributors, we are not "losing out".

Sorry Sfox, but people who start name calling immediately put themselves in the 'bigot' camp. It was you that chose to lower the tone.

I did not use deregotary language about ALL immigrants, and your misrepresenting me, deliberately, is another example of your bigotry.
I am allowed to make valid criticism of British and EU policies and those immigrants who benefit from them, as in describing people who live off the host society as 'parastic' and a 'drain'. That is what they are.

As for my reference to Roma, this needs pointing out to counter the pro immigrationists stereotype of the 'hard working Poles'! Some, albeit a minority, are here for the easy life and we would be mad to tolerate that when we Brexit.

Face it SFOX. Europeans come here to benefit themselves NOT to benefit us. Small numbers do benefit us , by happenstance, EU dentists for example, who have relieved the shortage, but the majority, even those working, are taking out more than they contribute, that is their reason for coming and its no use getting all dewy eyed and emotional about it and insulting your countrymen who do not share your desire to give away our children's heritage.

Tell you what, without Polish airmen, we wouldn't have a heritage, you can make your appeals to emotion all you want.

Oh btw of the 790,000 from Poland in the UK there are about 14,800 are unemployed.

Thats 1%.

Ohhh such a drain.

Yes immigrants come to better themselves but they also contribute to society, do jobs that would go unfilled ( or have you not noticed the low unemployment at the minute). Your approach is simply to make out like people are on the take
I didn't insult you, I called you on your statements, which looking at your last post, would suggest the term I used is correct.

Describing anyone as "parasitic" is despicable.

£2.5bn more in tax was paid by new immigrants than they claimed in benefits.

Yes but its the smaller numbers of well paid professionals paying most of that, NOT the people on minimum wage!

And its a misleading figure because
a) It doesnt allow for their usage of the infrastructure which has been built up over decades by our ancestors, and to which they have contributed nothing
b) Its a snapshot in time, at a still early stage in immigration when not all have even started their families, making use of maternity services, requiring education for their kids, health treatment, and later on healthcare and pensions themselves when they grow older!

Surely, even bigoted as you are, you can see that over time they will not be working at any greater level than Brits, because they will not remain over represented among the working age group?

Indeed if its the economic argument you want for immigration easily the best thing to do is to admit them on short term contracts, a few years, dont provide free education, make them or their employers pay, much like Brits in Dubai or Singapore!

But for you its not about economics really is it? You are in thrall to the EU. You WANT to see Britain dissolved into an EU superstate and all the people stirred up. Isnt that right Sfox?

No even your HOL report and the UCL one finds that EU immigrants contribute more than they take out as a collective, so even your statements are untrue and iniquitous.

Tell you what, without Polish airmen, we wouldn't have a heritage, you can make your appeals to emotion all you want.
Oh purleeze. This "we owe it to the Poles ecause of WW" is desperation!

1. We allowed 300K Poles to settle here after WW2.
2. We were helping them as much as they us, without Britain entering the war they too wouldnt have a heritage. They were fighting for POLAND not Britain
3. We certainly do NOT have a duty to admit the whole of Poland because of what a small number of airmen did sixty years ago!
4. By no means all the EU immigrants are Poles so this special plea for Poles is a red herring.

Anyway enough for now!

"a) It doesnt allow for their usage of the infrastructure which has been built up over decades by our ancestors, and to which they have contributed nothing2

What have your children contributed to it?

In fact what have those living in Spain contributed to it their? You know the ones that you take as self sufficient.

Most EU immigrants are not on "minimum wage" only 14% of households qualify for tax credits, even when we move it out the to the EU 8 countries of Eastern Europe only 18% of them qualify, which would suggest that most of these people are not poorly paid.

Right lets play some more with you.

"Its a snapshot in time, at a still early stage in immigration when not all have even started their families, making use of maternity services, requiring education for their kids, health treatment, and later on healthcare and pensions themselves when they grow older!"

Which they pay taxes and national insurance for. You can't say your welcome to come do the work and pay tax but you can't take out, crap argument.

When you make this point you also don't consider that immigrants will contribute in tax when they are here, that they will contribute in tax once their children are grown and contributing themselves, but for the sake of your argument you want to talk about future costs but not future payments.

Your continued immigrant bashing, and lack of intellectual rigour certainly paint you as a good spokesman for the leave camp, everything they have been complaining being "tarred with the same brush" you embody.

Give away our children's heritage. Really.

Arefen you are talking nonsense.

The world is changing, every developed country has immigration. I don't know what century you are living in but I live here, now, and although I am an immigrant this IS my home. Home is here. My children's home is here. And I have the same rights as you do. End of. Period. Accept it and move on.

No even your HOL report and the UCL one finds that EU immigrants contribute more than they take out as a collective, so even your statements are untrue and iniquitous

Thats in total, an average, and does not negate my points.

The world is changing, every developed country has immigration. I don't know what century you are living in but I live here, now, and although I am an immigrant this IS my home. Home is here. My children's home is here. And I have the same rights as you do. End of. Period. Accept it and move on

If you are a citizen its true and you should join with me in welcoming our reclaiming the right to control our own future. However you are wrong if you are suggesting every developed country has mass immigration, some have very little and some have what they want, not all are accepting unwanted levels of immigration.

Aerfen, the poles would certainly not agree that we helped them as much as they helped us.

Anyway, your points have been thoroughly negated.

BTW what will you do when freedom of movement continues? You know its not going to stop right, that was never promised.

They said "control" not cut, not stop, of course that could mean higher levels of it too.

Oh and comparing the UK to Dubai and Singapore which have lower combined populations than London is rather poor.

Aerfen - you do realise that most of the English "ancestors" were themselves immigrants to England?
That there are very few of "pure" original inhabitants of "England"?

And even if you're just talking 19th and 20th Century, much of our "infrastructure" was built by Irish "navvies"? Or that a lot of the UK "wealth" was built on the back of colonial riches? Or that out royal family is itself an "immigrant" family? although maybe they fit the definition of scroungers

But it would appear you would like us to go back to past days, when it was the Irish, Jews or Blacks who were viewed as the "scroungers" or "othered", with signs such as "No Irish or No Jews" (and later, "No Blacks") were acceptable.

I wasn't born in the UK - but on one side of the family have a lineage supposedly going back to Henry VIII (wrong side of the blanket ) Depending on how far back you go, I have a mix of German, Swedish, Danish, South African, Irish, French Hugeonot, Australian and English. Now whose heritage should I be proud of? As it happens, it's the Scottish heritage - the one country that as far as I am aware, I have no "blood" link to (although I do now via ds ).

I have spent many years "contributing" to Scottish (and English) infrastructure. Does the fact that I wasn't born here make that contribution less valuable or somehow suspect? Or is it ok because I'm naturalised British? (Which my dad did as quickly as possible for both himself and his children - my mum already had a British passport by pure accident of circumstance, born during the war while her dad worked here - as his passport was not one that was good for travel).

What about those EU immigrants who have "worked" on building infrastructure? Will that be the criteria you would suggest using to "allow" people to stay? But that would include some of those Poles that you seem to have a thing against?

What about doctors, like my dad or many of my friends (South African, Kiwi, Maltese, Australian, Indian)? Or just plain sales people (Icelandic, Polish, French)?

I find your comments resenting immigrants "utilising infrastructure built up by ancestors over decades" despicable and selfish.

Aerfen, the poles would certainly not agree that we helped them as much as they helped us

Oh well they must be right then, their being totally objective of course!

Anyway, your points have been thoroughly negated

Self congratulation is a fine thing only when its true!

Well it is true.

You asked about immigrants contribution to infrastructure, and that was refuted because we don't ask children to contribute, and we also don't ask our own ex pats to do so. Your point about "self sufficient" pensioners being of benefit to the economies of the EU countries that they go to is destroyed by the point that you seek to hold immigrants to this country to.

Your argument regarding immigrants seems to be based entirely on benefits, but then when its pointed out that the benefits claimed by EU nationals is very, very low and in terms of public spending is not large, then you change to discuss historical contributions to infrastructure. Which frankly is an erroneous argument, and smacks of desperation.