Does anyone still think the referendum was a good idea?

[whydidhesaythat]

Just checking.

It wasn't long before many of us had had enough of experts putting the economy above democracy, sovereignty etc.

Except nobody clarified what leaving the EU actually meant. The person who decides is going to be elected by about 150,000 Conservative party members.

Goldmans contributed 500 grand to remain. Peter Hargreaves (of Hargreaves lansdown ) contributed 3.2 million to leave.

The Government also spent an eye watering 10 million on the Remain propaganda leaflet which went to every household .

&Except nobody clarified what leaving the EU actually meant. The person who decides is going to be elected by about 150,000 Conservative party members.*

Yes, and it is apparently the EU that is undemocratic .

Except nobody clarified what leaving the EU actually meant. The person who decides is going to be elected by about 150,000 Conservative party members.

was meant to be in bold

But usually when experts and academics get together, they thrive on debate, disagreement and challenge.

We do thrive on debate and challenge. However, unlike people arguing on the Internet, we don't disagree with each other for the sake of it. There are a great many academically "controversial" topics which in fact enjoy almost complete consensus whilst academics battle vigorously over the final details and nuances.

Where do you think academics get their research funding from? Which academics get professorships at top universities? Yes those who pull in the research funding.

Oh great, another direct accusation of corruption . You are absolutely might that academics need research funding and that funding levels are one important measure of success.

I'm sure you don't mean to suggest that all academics in receipt of funds to do research (that would be all of them, because we can't pay for our work using unicorn farts and happy thoughts, unlike Brexit) are liars who write whatever the funding body wants to hear. Indeed, academics are usually the first to pick apart each others' research (see above) and one of the things we might look for is where the funding came from, BUT it's the data, methods and reasoning that are the really important bits.

So I think what you're saying is that only academics who say something you disagree with are corrupt liars?

The public have spoken and now the politicians can negotiate with the EC with a clear mandate.

This isn't even close to being true though.

At very best, there's a narrow mandate to leave the EU. There's sod all mandate for anything else, because clearly those in the Leave camp who actually do want to go are divided in what sort of exit they would like. There are some who want us to go it alone entirely, others prefer EEA membership, still others a mix and match of both. Realistically, negotiating for EEA membership would be supported by a majority of those who voted, since nearly all Remain voters and some Leave voters would prefer it to nothing at all. But as it's never been put to the public, nor are there many MPs who were elected on the basis of leaving the EU and joining the EEA instead, it's hard to ascertain exactly where the mandate is. Even though it's almost certainly preferred by more people than going it entirely alone. The same is also true of going it alone, except that wouldn't even be favoured by a majority as EEA probably would. And nobody has voted for either. It's all just about as clear as mud.

The disenfranchised people in the north who do not benefit from EU showcasing as Cornwall does for example

Cornwall voted Leave, so they obviously don't like the showcasing either. However, immediately after the vote, Cornwall County Council then asked if the money they got from the EU would be replaced, to which the answer was on the lines of "no guarantee of that."

So..... where then are the non-experts, who don't want to be patronised, who are saying " right, I'll roll up my sleeves and get stuck in"? I don't think I have seen any yet.

eye watering 10 million on the Remain propaganda leaflet

I agree with you - that was a waste of money.

I suppose this sort of thing:
www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/06/ftse-pound-brexit-asia-markets-turmoil-eu-referendum/
is NOT eye watering, nor a waste of money.

Was a Leave vote supportive of more free trade with countries like China or a vote for higher tarrifs on Chinese imports?

Once I have found out, I think I'm going to have to move to a swing seat to have any influence on the next election.

On the other hand I suspect I'd have more influence if me and the cat just signed up for every political party.

A4document
Why assume experts are just those who know about the economy?
What about those with a deep and full understanding of NI and the situation there?
Those who properly understand how leaving the EU might impact on environmental laws?
Experts in things I don't even realise might be impacted by Brexit?
Money is not the only, or possibly even the most, important thing, although it is the one most often talked about.
I have talked about the government having access to experts - I mean all experts, not just economists. That way, a fully rounded view of what leaving the EU could be put together, not just an economic one.

And experts other than economists (I'm thinking particularly about environmental experts) also said we should stay.

I do not want to see the many nations, ethnies and languages of Europe shaken and stirred into a US consumerist rootless homogeneity.

Missed this earlier - when is this shaking and stirring going to be happening? Because so far I haven't found the nations of Europe to be a rootless homogeneous mass of blended ethnicities all speaking Esperanto. On the contrary, as is the case here in the UK, there seems to be plenty of healthy regional and local identity even.

Maybe I've been mistakenly visiting European historic theme parks and all the people, food, languages and architecture in them are actors/made of fibreglass .

I know I'm going to get into trouble for this, but I would love to know what the relative %ages of climate change deniers in the leave and remain camps are........

Does this help Bertrand? (Source: lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/)

Misread that as 'relative ages', Bertrand, and wondered what you were on about!

However. As you've just sounded the Claig klaxon, the rest of this discussion is probably about to be derailed big time.

No, the referendum was a bad idea.

Utterly baffled as to how anyone can find a positive in the current situation.

No

Though it's done now. I am annoyed that MP's who want to stop is leaving by voting in parliament didn't speak up before if they had been more in touch with the public I am sure they would have and tried to stop the referendum

Mother of Bleach must be right - it was so badly planned, which in my mind undermines its appropriateness. If the Government was prepared to put the issue to the people, they should have accepted responsibility - and made good plans - for either outcome; that does not seem to be the case. And I still don't understand why leading members of the Government (esp the PM) were even involved in the out and in campaigns: their job is surely different from that.

There are no reliable statistics on how people voted except the yes/no split and areas. Age could be obtained from examination of ballot papers and comparing with electoral roll - not happening.

All other 'figures' come from small opinion polls, don't be fooled.

No figures are held on how many of the population don't believe in climate change. Why on earth would anyone think that information Exists?

All other 'figures' come from small opinion polls, don't be fooled.

I actually agree with this to an extent. But sauce for the gander and all that - I've seen plenty of posts saying that the Leave vote was mainly for the highest ideals of sovereignty/democracy (and not anti-immigration, oh except when it was), that most Leave voters are in favour of the single market, bald assertions that "most BMEs" voted Leave and so on.

Bottom line is, we can't conclude anything apart from Leave won by a slim majority and that - apart from the common ground of Leaving the EU - they don't actually have a consensus on where we're going. Oh, and our economy is in the shitter.

US consumerist rootless homogeneity

That statement shows a complete lack of understanding how Americans see own ethnic identity. Definitely not homogenous!!

More like overlapping & multiple. El Salvadoran / Philipino / Peruvian / Korean / English / Polish / Mexican / Indian / Hindu / French / Scottish / Swedish / Catholic / Presbyterian / Atheist / Italian / Norwegian AND American. These co-exist within individuals and within extended families. And that's just at the family wedding I went to last week.

Elements - yes. As I've said before , only one poll is accurate and making capital out of any others is absolute nonsense whichever side you are on.

The economy was down the tubes before, just well hidden. 'Jam tomorrow' with the deficit.

If you read this thread it's frighteningly clear that most posters haven't a clue as to what's actually going on or thinking much about how others have been effected.

A4 Document , no I agree money isn't everything. However, please bear with me for a moment.
My pension was being exchanged at €1.43 to the pound. That fell to €1.34 as Beautiful Boris announced that he was for Brexit. On the night of the referendum the exchange rate, (exactly the worth of my pension and only income) started the night at €1.32 to the pound. This afternoon I was offered parity ....€1 to the pound.

No, money isn't everything but it does help to pay for food.

I pay UK tax on my ruined pension. I and many, many others in my stiuation would have liked to be allowed to vote, but we were not, we had no say at all and yet maybe we know more than some about the EU and we were some of the most affected by the referendum.

I've mentioned this before on this thread but I guess it's too difficult to answer. Before you say it, no, I didn't have much choice about moving to France.

I worked in the EU a few years back and it was almost one to one then. It is a risk you take when you go abroad with finances from a different country, or even invest in a different country. Sorry for your situation but the pound is never stable.

And it is hedge able for a small cost. Can't understand why someone would not hedge if their living standard depended on it.

A4Document

I understand why you would think this way but do you know that many of the 'expert' remain opinions weren't about money for the sake of it?

The 'experts' weren't a handful of cash-obsessed narcissists.

We didn't just hear from economists. Experts from the NHS were saying the NHS couldn't manage apart from the EU. Researchers trying to cure cancer were saying they wouldn't be able to make more discoveries if we weren't part of the EU. Those are only two examples but there were many.

Sovereignty is a thorny issue, too. You can be more autonomous and independent, but weaked and with so little influence globally that ultimately you end up with less power, relying on other countries for protection. Some 'experts' were thinking of that possibility.