Does anyone still think the referendum was a good idea?

[whydidhesaythat]

Just checking.

peregrina You do realise Jeremy Hunt is accountable to parliament and the country and not the junior doctors, don't you? That when we talk about democracy for the country, we're not extrapolating that to mean the workers in every organisation get to tell their line managers what to do?

As always, some good, thought provoking (if depressing) commentary from the LRB.

www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n14/on-brexit/where-are-we-now?utm_source=LRB+online+email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20160617+satoshi&utm_content=ukrw_subsact&hq_e=el&hq_m=4335302&hq_l=8&hq_v=260ce65776

In answer to op, it was a terrible idea from the start, and the subsequent events would suggest so to, to anyone willing to take a minute to really digest the economic implications across the board. Short term shocks have long reaching consequences.

bkgirl there is no such a thing as a 'Euro army'. There is a security and defence policy that allows member states to deploy troops as a part of a common mission; those troops are made up of standing national armies. Similar to UN or NATO. I.e. National armies that can deploy under EU banner. A policy developed after NATO screwed us over.

'EU Army' is a total myth, yet I hear it over and over again.

Doctors voting on whether to accept a work package offer is in no way similar to the entire electorate voting in a referendum.

Dh voted Remain but said he would march in the streets if parliament threw it out. There was no right or wrong answer. People decided and it's up to all those 'experts' now to make it work. You cannot disenfranchise 17 million people. If Labour supported a move like that they would lose even more votes to UKIP and never get them back.

In answer to the original question, I keep changing my mind! I do sort of feel like I will be having the same argument for the rest of my life...

No. Disastrous idea and we'll all pay for it.

I always thought that it was a terrible idea, that our involvement with the EU was a far too complex issue to distill to a straightforward Yes/No for the general public (I include myself).

it's up to all those 'experts' now to make it work

Jeez, please tell me you're joking.

It was an incredibly bad idea. 'Leave EU' means nothing unless you clarify whether that you want to stay in or leave the single market.

People decided and it's up to all those 'experts' now to make it work.

Make what work? It's still not clear what people were voting for, or whether people were voting for something that is realistically possible.

Totally agree merrymouse.

Definitely a bad idea.

The economic argument for the EU was too complex and the leave campaign turned the referendum into a "Immigration yes or no" question. They fed people's prejudice and told them what they wanted to hear, not what could realisticaly be achieved. A bit like Syriza in Greece with their bail-out referendum...

It has led to a political meltdown, stirred xenophobia, created division on the british society, alienated EU citizens legally living in this country and left UK citizens legaly living abroad in a limbo. And it has given a blow to the economy when we really did not need it. And, what is worst, the Torys are supposed to fix it.

So yes, remove red tape, such as maternity/paternity leave rights for people working on small bussiness (Andrea Leadsome), or de-regulate the city so the bankers can do more of the things that lead us to the financial crisis, while we wait that the Tory party members decide who the next PM is (so democratic).

Not the best of ideas, no.

Yes it was wonderful.
I am amazed that some posters think its too complex for the demos to decide, yet NOT too complex for our equally ignorant MPs who are no better qualified than everyone else representing a range of IQ and educational backgrounds. It suggests a worship of elites which is quite shocking given the way this self serving group have cheated and lied, and their mishandling of the Iraq war, immigration, the economy, house building, the NHS.
How can anyone believe they are well suited to force us to remain in the EU?

Can you tell me why it's wonderful? What good things do you think will benefit you specifically?

I agree Aerfen. The "worship of elites" is concerning to say the least. It used to be that Labour represented many people who were anti-elite, for equality etc., but they're now far more allied with southern upper-middle-classes/London champagne socialists and have less time for the ordinary working/middle class especially those further north. Since Tony Blair and New Labour, even Labour is much further to the right than it was. Ordinary people are being patronised and infantilised more than has been the case for a long time. It doesn't even seem to matter what the qualities of the "elite" representatives are, or whether what they say makes any sense. They are right because they are "experts", and know what's best for us themselves so it's not allowed to use your own mind to challenge or disagree. It used to be Labour challenging the hierarchy, the status quo, the establishment, the greedy. Now they don't, and there's no left wing political party or newspaper which does so.

Aerfen, wonderful post.

I have to say though I also feel some people do not trust themselves and do prefer to hand over responsibility for their lives to someone else in the way they can make better choices for them. This is fine, and if they feel nervous or un sure of bigger issues I don't blame them for this.

However As you rightly point out - (especially pertinent in the light of today's sad, but expected news), we should never trust these people to make big decisions for us.

We must always keep power with the people in a direct as way as we possibly can. Our system has flaws but we cannot add layers to it, to obfuscate power further.

Didn't Blair try and get work in the EU as president or some such horror

Ordinary people are being patronised and infantilised more than has been the case for a long time

Interesting, do you think this is why some people seem nervous of allowing their peers the vote?

They have perhaps been undermined in their life - perhaps at school and do not feel empowered to be able to participate in society to this degree?

It suggests a worship of elites

I'll be first in the queue with the rotten tomatoes for some of the mendacious, cowardly lying scumbags in politics. Of which some recent notable examples were the popularly-trusted Messrs Johnson, Gove and Farage.

But not all politicians are useless liars much as Murdoch's press would have us believe - I would cite the late Jo Cox as a shining example of someone who wanted to serve her country.

That's an aside to my point of view - I did consider the complexities of EU membership as a matter for "the elites" by which I mean Experts. Because they're Experts, not because I worship them. I do not expect to have a properly useful level of insight into areas of economics, politics and law in which I am not trained.

Kind of like I wouldn't expect you (generic), unless you are a trained cell biologist, to have any kind of useful opinion on how I should immunofluorescently stain my HeLa cells for confocal imaging.

I am amazed that some posters think its too complex for the demos to decide, yet NOT too complex for our equally ignorant MPs who are no better qualified than everyone else representing a range of IQ and educational backgrounds

I wasn't so bothered what the tories thought, tbh. I really, truly despise them.

T'was the experts I listened to, because I'm not a twat and I know that to be deemed 'an expert' you have to study beyond uni and excel in your chosen field.

I assumed someone classed an expert on economy would have more of a clue than me, whose only experience of banking is swearing frequently whenever I view my online banking.

The elite were all fighting with each other like schoolboys (no surprise there) the 'experts' all agreed leaving the EU would be a very bad thing indeed.

Who are the elites? How do I tell if I am one or if my neighbour is one? Are all MPs 'elites'? Are all "experts" elites?

I am pretty sure Mark Carney- or even Martin Lewis knows more about economics than most of us...........

I don't think Dennis Skinner's an elite........

i think you should send them thar fancy foreign cells right back where they came from, Elements!

The ranks of "experts" presented to us during the campaigns were organised by the pro-remain no10 etc. They wrote letters ready for people to put their name to, and got them published in pro-remain newspapers. Every few days there was another one, to the extent it became predictable.

One interpretation, which is what Cameron wanted, is that all the "experts" agreed and therefore were right. But usually when experts and academics get together, they thrive on debate, disagreement and challenge. So it doesn't add up. I'm suspicious of such an unusual and uniform consensus, which points to very selective and one-sided information being given.

Theelementsong
But not all politicians are useless liars much as Murdoch's press would have us believe - I would cite the late Jo Cox as a shining example of someone who wanted to serve her country

Was she your MP, or did you know her personally? I must admit I'd never even heard of her until she was killed.

As for 'serving her country' though my impression was very much that far from serving her constituents, her interests were very much more directed towards international concerns. It was telling that despite sympathy for her personal situation there was a strong BREXIT vote in Batley and Spen, so clearly the local electorate were not so impressed with her that they felt any compulsion to be guided by her diehard support for BREMAIN!