Does anyone still think the referendum was a good idea?

[whydidhesaythat]

Just checking.

Terrible idea. Representative democracy gives you a chance to replace people who make exceptionally damaging decisions. I hate the idea that by being given this choice, the leave voters may bring economic fallout as bad as the bloody bankers, and then what? Bash a resident of a traditional manufacturing area?

If we had been in a position to treat this advisory referendum as advisory, we might have been able to have a decent public discussion on what to do next. But no, or at least, not yet.

We are in a position to do so, it's just that politicians are lacking the gumption to do it.

Or rather to take that line.

I hope so Manon, but I've seen it argued on here and elsewhere that not to just 'pull the trigger' would be to disenfranchise a huge chunk of people who feel ignored already. Who'd then lurch into the arms of the far right. But there are so many possible catastrophes from this whole thing!

I think it was the Guardian videos on divided Britain that said that whatever happens someone needs to go to the country and just listen. Found it, here www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/divided-britain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster

The idea that politicians know better than the populace is not proven. Given all the unknowns, I am not even convinced the outcome is predictable; the system may just be too chaotic.

However unpredictability does not mean that the status quo should always be accepted.

I think that there is a lot of rage because a substantial portion of the remain camp do believe there was only one clear and correct decision and the ill informed public got it wrong.

I think this referendum was fundamentally flawed and probably broke more than one law and more than one electoral rule and so the referendum as it stood was highly questionable.

However, it's worst aspect was the disinformation that swamped it. The main political exponents of "leave" with their wild claims have been found out, and have lost all credability While the remain leaders, so lacking in factual evidence, and those in the financial sector and business management who were clamouring to stay being so mistrusted by the voting public, there could be very little "well informed choice" before voting.

Now we are actually watching the results, we are vastly better informed as to the consiquences of a Brexit "leave" vote actually are. It would be equally informing if the British government now clearly stated that EU Article 50 will NOT be signed and that Britain will remain a member of the EU. We would immediately see the results on the UK and world economies and can then make a vastly better informed choice at a better moment.

Nothing is forcing us to leave or to stay, the choice is still in the hands of the British voting public. We can go at any time in the future if we want to, but we now badly need to see the result of calling off Brexit so that we can then make that well-informed choice.

In short, it's not rocket science, if we are wise we'll test the water in the other direction before jumping.

Representative democracy no place for referenda, too complex for binary choice, no plan = chaos, and then hitler....
All my thoughts are already on the thread!

So no. But I haven't changed my mind, I already thought it was a shit idea.

larry. But we were ill informed, weren't we? Whatever side.
If you can honestly tell me that you thought about, and understood, the implications for everything that would be impacted then maybe you'd be able to argue that you were well informed.
University funding (eg for cancer research)
Northern Ireland and the peace process
The environment
Economics
Etc etc etc

The advantage that the politicians have is that they experts from all fields giving them advice and opinions. I don't. It's not that the politicians are inherently better, they just have the option to call on better people than I do.

A distinct possibility, I would have thought, because I think many voters were registering a protest against the current government

No, they had to vote out because no one was listening to them or helping them with issues caused by the EU membership. I agree to a small degree some issues were nothing to do with the EU but its also been widely acknowledged not least by BJ himself, the British have a sense of Stockholm syndrome, other nations bend rules are corrupt, directly oppose the EU when they need too.

We play by the rules. Another reason why people had to vote out.

Blair shat on them, Cameron took a cleaver to them, what on earth is the option after that?

paris

nothing has happened since leave that was not expected apart from BJ resignation.

Many economists both for and agaisnt leave predicted pound would fall, x would happen B would happen? Did you miss all this? Who in their right mind would expect a leave vote to boost pound and markets?

It was widely mooted and discussed Cameron would resign, there is nothing un expected here except BJ knifing but then again - it doesn't bother me or many like me because we were never fans or followers.

Its seems very short sighted to me, to expect everything to remain as the status quo when a ground shaking decision has been made. It will of course take some time.

Read Naserm Taleb 'black swAn'.

He writes interestingly on economic expertise...

RockandRollSuicide.

You do of course speak for yourself as I do. To say that nothing has happened is to dismiss just about everything that has radically changed very many people's lives.

Just one example, a lot of British citizen pensioners moved to a more clement climate for well thought out, valid reasons - health (arthritis and so on) to eak out their pensions, to be with family, I believe the number is very roughly 1 1/2 million people. Many have UK pensions on which they pay UK Tax by PAYE, I do, and despite not using any UK services at all I have been taxed by HMRC for years. As it happens I've been treated by the French health service for a very dodgy cancer and am now being treated by them for MS, (this at great cost, but not to me or to the British government. I have discussed this with the French authorities who simply, and very kindly say, "don't worry about that, just concentrate on your health, we'll take care of the rest". But I do worry about it, I am fully paid up with UK Social Services and it's simply not right that the French should foot the bill.

I tell you this because I'm not in a position to work and my British sterling pansion is my only income. Like all other people who have been abroad for more than 15 years I was denied a refefendum vote. By definition those who have been in Europe for !5 years are quite likely to be pensioners, many paying UK tax and at the mercy of the sterling exchange rate. We are very likely to lose the tripple lock pension increases as these are dependent on an EU agreement. In short we are among the most affected by Brexit and yet we were denied the right to vote.

I do understand that a vote for a UK politician would be a bit odd maybe, but a refferendum vote where each voter is representing her or himself on a matter with deeply relevant and far reaching consiquences is a critically different matter.
You may remember hearing about the American revolution that cost Britain the American colonies and of James Otis who hammered home "Taxation without representation is tyranny" (No taxation without representation). He was right.
Among others the British also Taxed the Irish without representation with equally dire results, and blow me if they haven't done it again with this referendum. Such behaviour discriminates, denies equal treatment, is manifestly injust and importantly, it's illegal. I believe it's illegal in the UK and it is illegal in the EU. For the record, the pound stood at £1 = €1.42 until the day Boris announced that he was for Brexit when it plunged, each time that he opened his mouth the Pound sank, (this is verifyable fact).
The pound went into freefall as referendum night progressed and is still falling.

Tell me I'm wrong, have you little thought for those who have already lost their jobs? I'm sure you do think of them really and that they were just an oversight. Heaven forbid that you think only of yourself as that way leads to great loneliness in the end.

Are you not reassured Paris7 by comments on other threads that once we've been through 10 to 20 years of economic pain the UK (or maybe just the K) will have a very rosy future?

I've been waiting 20 years for this referendum. Wasn't that long enough as what we signed up to in 1974 bears to comparison to what we are entangled in now.
The EU wants ever closer Union - fine, but we never have signed up for that, so best for both sides if we split now before it gets even more difficult to seperate.
If we'd have been asked before Maastricht we would not be in this position now - we would have left the EU then!

The Disunited Kingdom. Yes Nauticant, I'm counting on it! A very dodgy thing to do really.
Just 24years ago come September, on a dark and stormy Black Wednesday night, as three robbers and a banker and a Tory (OK five robbers) sat around a fire, and "Tell us a story" said one... And this is the story he told:

You've just emigrated to France haven't you?... Well, Norman €£%&$¥ Lamont and Robin Leigh-Pemberton here have just hauled us out of ERM overnight, so it's not 10 francs to the pound any more, it's 6 francs to the pound now. The value of that Kent house you're selling has just about halved in francs... Oh yes and that redundancy money you've just banked in your UK account, it's just about halved in value too.

Tebbit told us to get on our bikes, and I had. Just as I was restarting my career. Our company had lost the ITV franchise in a blind auction and I'd just lost half of everything I had.

Do we pensioners trust the UK? Tell me, we've been dumped again, why would we?

BMW6 - I've heard that said a few times. The thing for me is that I am not old enough to have voted in 1974. I'm in my forties. I was voting on what we have now and what I want the future to be, both for myself and for my kids (which was the chance to move freely within the EU to study or work as they please). I know it's not exactly what people said yes to 42 years ago, but loads of voters, including loads of the remain voters as far as I can tell from the age charts that keep appearing, won't have been looking backwards to that. The world has changed, and I find it weird to make a decision based in part on what people thought then.

You call yourself BMW6 .... Wwhat else is there to say?

I'm not sure which thread this should go on, but here will do.

The country votes 52 to 48 % for Brexit, and a change from the status quo and the Remain camp are told to get over it because that's democracy and they are sore losers.

The junior doctors reject a change to the status quo by 58 to 42 %, but democracy flies out the window here because Jeremy Hunt is going to impose the new contract anyway.

Peregrina - my thoughts exactly!

Why can't the Remain Tories exhibit the same sang-froid over the referendum?

At the very least call for a Parliamentary vote.

What are you saying Peregrina? Surely it's beyond just a parliamentary vote. Both UK and EU law has been broken, someone beyond politics is going to have to take that seriously.
Anyway let's be realistic, what parliament? I thought they'd all committed harai - unless of course we have another live again "Blair job" on our hands.

All together now .... smile.... say "CHEESE!"

I do beg your pardon Peregrina that last post was meant for Manon.escaut.

Hara-Kiri...gawd this thread program has a mind of its own!

Strewth can you believe that Beautiful Boris has already had the culot to raise his blond mop above the trench wall.... Sod off Boris you are supposed to be dead, play the game!

SOS! Is Boris making a bid for the Labour leadership?

Surely it's beyond just a parliamentary vote

Yes I think it is, but we cannot in a representative democracy act on this referendum, which has no legal validity, which has such seismic consequences, with such a close outcome, without calling Parliament to vote on it. If we don't do that, our children will ask us what on earth we were playing at.

I'm not sure what the outcome would be now, I think many Tory MPs may capitulate to Remain, but there still may be Remain majority.

In an ideal world if the parties were in decent shape we could call an election and put it to a general vote that way, but Labour and Libdems are currently unelectable. (I say this as someone who has never voted Tory in their life).

My original point with regard to Hunt is that I don't understand why the Remain Tories have wilted in the way they have. He doesn't give a shit about the doctor's vote. When Remain has the majority in Parliament as well as the Tories, there's really no excuse for such pusillanimity.

Remainers represent half the electorate and we deserve democratic representation.