Just watched the Panorama programme on why people voted leave

[ssd]

and am livid

so many people who had zero fucking clue what will now happen to this country, so many wanting to have England back to how it was years ago, well guess what it wont fucking happen, time doesnt go backwards and the immigration wont get any better, it wont stop and it wont go away, all thats happened is this country will now be less competitive and the economy will tank, and when the economy tanks they have to get the money from somewhere and it'll come from the poor as the services they rely on will be cut, massively

and this was meant to be a protest vote!!

why dont so many leave voters actually realise what the are protesting about, lack of schools, housing, the nhs queues, has happened because the tory government have followed an austerity agenda we didnt even need and thats why there is a chronic shortage of housing/school places, as none of these services are being built and if you think voting leave and having a more right wing tory government in place will help these services out by christ you've got another thing coming

its fucking maddening

Who benefits the MOST from getting the UK into chaos, and out of the EU?

I've never used the phrase "lumpen proletariat"

But I do believe that years and years of media attention and misinformation on immigration has caused a lot of the issues.

(I know smallfox, and completely agree with you, just trying to see what motivates Just5/Dacre to carry on seeing 'concerns' as absolutely nothing other than legitimate ever.)

've never used the phrase "lumpen proletariat"

No, I don't imagine you would

Wouldn't I have the biggest reason to vote on immigration though Dacre?

Only 63% of my Borough are from the UK, house prices are rising rapidly, its hard to get NHS dentists etc, they've closed part of the local hospital and we now have to go to North Mid with all the scandals there.

Blah blah, urbanites, you make out like every London Borough is Kensington and Chelsea.

know smallfox, and completely agree with you, just trying to see what motivates Just5/Dacre to carry on seeing 'concerns' as absolutely nothing other than legitimate ever.)

'Concerns' generally are reasonable(ish) Faw.

When they go from being concerns to being prejudice, they stop being legitimate and at that point I wash my hands.

But I think the way to head off growing prejudice is to stop silencing reasonably expressed concerns from disadvantaged demographics.

Dialogue is what will save us.

Corbyn is hugely to blame for traditional northern Labour areas voting leave. He did very little to persuade them to vote remain.

I agree that the remain message should have been spelled out bluntly to people who seemingly did not realize they were voting themselves out of EU grants or employment as a result of their 'protest' vote.

It is very disturbing for the future not only of UK.

Basically, tere are resources in banks and it seems we are prepared for a transition. How will these resources be utiliezed is another question. Will they be directed towards boost of the economy or nhs?!

I don't think it's blankly repeating, the message is driven home to the working class - a great chunk of the electorate - everywhere you look : in the papers and on the TV, day after week after year. We are encouraged to fear and blame immigrants for problems caused by other factors, eg the sell off of council housing. I am with smallfox, I live in a Conservative and relatively low immigration area but have been so disappointed to hear people start to speak more openly about immigration as "a problem" and I am sure for a lot of people this was a major factor.
Consider how people would have voted if Leave had not made promises about or mentioned immigration?

Most urbanite, MC, leavers had no reason to vote on the issue of immigration.

And yet they did, or if they didn't, politicians have assumed that they did, and have said so immediately after the result, so perhaps leavers should make it clear they didn't!

Freedom of movement looks set to end. It is what people wanted, isn't it.

Only 63% of my Borough are from the UK, house prices are rising rapidly, its hard to get NHS dentists etc, they've closed part of the local hospital and we now have to go to North Mid with all the scandals there.

No because Lindon is culturally different, isn't it? It's so cosmopolitan, so multicultural, has so much work available. I can't imagine that there are many people in London who feel aggrieved my migration. Those people moved out a while ago. Why do you think Clacton is so purple?

Leave voters in Lindon are either hard right ideologues, hard left ideologues, public servants or they live in Havering/Barking/Isle of Dogs (they're the minority that haven't made it to Clacton yet )

Blah blah, urbanites, you make out like every London Borough is Kensington and Chelsea.

If you knew which borough I'm in, you'd know how inadvertently funny that is. And why your 63% sounds a bit 'white suburb' to me. It is outer London, presumably?

The programme said it wouldn't play to the stereotypes.

It played to the stereotypes.

However it was Panarama which is always god awful tabloid journalism masquerading as investigative journalism. (Its had a few victories but for the most part I find the programme tends to do more harm than good)

This episode certainly helped no one. I'm not quite sure why I watched since I feared it would do exactly what it did.

And yet they did, or if they didn't, politicians have assumed that they did, and have said so immediately after the result, so perhaps leavers should make it clear they didn't!

I think politicians need to stop assuming.

I'm in the hairdressers right now and the woman next to me is telling the hairdresser that she voted out as she has some gold necklaces that she doesn't wear and she wants to sell them. She heard George Osbourne say the economy would go up the spout so she thought she would vote leave so her gold chains would be worth more.

However, there is no doubt that if you are poor you probably don't own a home (so a house crash won't personally affect you) don't work in London city (or if you do, it's not in trade or world banking) and you probably don't have a degree, and the idea of your children studying in Berlin or Madrid or Athens is perhaps a tad unrealistic.

So I wonder what the main difference is between poor Londoners and poor people living in smaller towns away from London? Because I have literally nothing. If I die tomorrow my children will inherit £800 in savings, my sewing machines and fabric stash, my washing machine and a tumble dryer. Oh and a laptop. That's it.

I struggle to pay the rent and I live in a council house where the rent is supposedly 'affordable' (Lol, whenever I hear people trot out the phrase 'affordable' I think, based on what income?)

We were on the housing list 12 years before getting rehoused (4 of us 1 bedroom), during which time l observed lots of 'foreigners' get allocated better housing on my very doorstep after a year in hostel accommodation.

So I supposedly tick all the boxes of the said demographic the leavers represent. But I know loads of people like me, some on benefits for decades, and they all voted remain. As did I. The main reason I think is that we were looking at our children's futures and understood one thing: things are bad now and we don't want them getting worse. Also we have embraced diversity, with the richness it brings to otherwise grim existance. The restaurants, the food, the stories, the people. Also perhaps London being the hub of Westminster we tend to be more likely to observe that parliamentary policy is to blame for lack of housing, schooling etc? I speak in general terms. My father voted out citing immigration, ironic, he came here when he was 15. But he devours The Sun

I get the sense that when we see 'foreigners' struggling along on three jobs minimum wage we think 'ah just like me' rather than 'I would be better off it wasn't for you'. Also regarding university. Again, being poor far better for children to go to a uni with less fees. Also maternity leave etc. So why did people in these poorer areas outside London with less competition for resources from foreigners not see things this way and vote out? Whereas poor people in London voted in? Why were they unable to differentiate between years of bad parliamentary decision making and the EU? I can only assume things must be beyond grim. Well all of us at the bottom of the tree are all fucked now.

I think politicians need to stop assuming

They're not alone in that I swear I'll scream if I read one more comment about most peoples' reason for voting as they did ... unless of course these posters have some magical talent, unknown to the rest of us, for getting inside the heads of millions?

Ha white Suburb, in my borough 63% white British also means probably about 25 or so percent of that is Greek, Turkish, Cypriot decent, plus the rest.

It's not the end of the earth either.

So why did people in these poorer areas outside London with less competition for resources from foreigners not see things this way and vote out?

I think you need to look at the way 'competition' works in small towns with only a handful of employers and laughable, expensive public transport.

More mobile low-pay workers inevitably have an advantage over those with ties. It's just the market.

Hopefully she will have her vote withdrawn by the next GE. Can't have the plebs have their say

So I wonder what the main difference is between poor Londoners and poor people living in smaller towns away from London?

A different sense of identity.

Certainly there is real 'northern working class identity' (or more accurately). I differ from my southern MC friends as I do feel I've been more aware of this and whilst they perhaps live in more cosmopolitian London they have not been exposed to this part of their country. It is different.

To a degree you can see it in northern gritty television drama but that often doesn't do it justice too and just plays out the 'grim up north' stereotype in a very different way to the reality.

You do have to see it to get an understanding, and really live it to get a true understanding. (I do fail on the second count). I've always had something of a problem as I've 'ended up living between worlds' in parts of my life as a result. Its difficult to explain really. Its all very subtle.

I hate it. The class division paints out lines there are there but also paints out ones which aren't too. Likewise North v South. I think as a nation we are particularly obsessed with how we define ourselves. We have to have so many more labels than other countries, whilst rejecting others at the same time. You are english, northern working class. Or you are from multicultural London, a British EU citizen and class is less important but your income level is.

Its all about labels.

The reality is we are not that different. We just choose to be.

Who willow?

I think the opposite is true too, that many didn't understand the EU and what could come post Brexit so voted to stay based on not liking change.

The woman in the hairdresser. Awful that people of such low intelligence can vote.

That's not very nice willow

What system would you prefer willow?