Anyone else baffled by this portrayal of the EU as progressive and liberal

[Roonerspism]

It struck me today watching the march that the EU is now being protrayed as this liberal force across European states promoting fair standards for all.

From the moment I knew I no longer believed in the EU, about five years ago, it was because I saw it as the exact opposite.

And it was this that underpinned my vote to Leave.

I'm essentially left leaning and feel increasingly lost in this sea of protests!

The EU has never meant "Europe" to me and is rather the desire for a distant superstate with power in the most powerful few countries. Indeed, the current austerity placed on the Southern European countries, to the benefit of the north seems to go unnoticed to the devastated UK youth who seem not to consider the hugely unemployed youth in south Europe.

This is a capitalist project and not a humanitarian one. The reason for free movement of people as a core concept is not because it's nice to travel but solely to ensure corporations have access to a mobile and cheap workforce this encouraging greater integration. Never mind if this decimates the country of origin.

The misery of the infliction of a single currency on countries as disparate as Germany and Greece and the subsequent power held by Germany will cause untold suffering for at least a generation.

The talks to promote TTIP have largely been held in secret and further underlines the utterly undemocratic nature of this regime.

Yet here we all are. Waving our EU flags.

I'm utterly bemused. Am I mad?!?!?!

I'm sure cherie ánd Tony sleep comfortably. Whatever happens they are made for life and their children!

MrsVilliers thanks for the link.

Perhaps the posters coming on trying to troll the thread should read it too. Then they might realise that working hours directives have no impact when you don't have a job.

The economy shrinking will.not help those who don't have a job. Benefits cuts will though.

I realise you're not going to believe anything posted on this thread so instead I suggest you read some financial reports on what is expected to happen with the economy. Not reports in newspapers but sector specific research and projections. You may find it interesting.

Oh please you think I get my information from newspapers? I've quoted lots of other sources

Tell me which sources are making these great predictions for brexit.. I asked earlier. No one could give me any.

Smallfox is correct, unfortunately.

There is a tendency for the left to 'talk to itself' and it really is in evidence in the latter stages of this thread. There is no evidence that people on the lowest wages and the most insecure terms and conditions will benefit from this outcome, and every reason to expect that they will not.

Nobody doubts that there are serious problems, and that these underpin a large part of the vote, but there is no reason to make the leap from recognising the causes of misery to believing that the chosen remedy will help to improve matters.

It would be great if it were otherwise.

What we need is sector based collective bargaining, or tripartite wage setting by bodies with union representation, but to do this, we need a proper right to strike and to regain levels of union density that makes strikes both achievable under the new thresholds when they come in, and effective.

I don't see any reason to think that brexit is going to make this more achievable.

I think that by leaving the EU, we stepped away from an organisation which, yes, was schizophrenic about workers rights - think laval, alemo herron etc - and yes was punishing in the anti austerity cuts and anti union changes imposed on Greece etc, but which also, fundamentally, supported a floor of worker rights.

As michael ford QC wrote before brexit, employment rights under a post-Brexit government will be anything that the government in power wants them to be - and Patel and other leavers have made it clear that all rights are on the table.

Now unless you are proposing that a hidden majority out there is going to vote in JC at the next election and I've misread all the signs (not inconceivable!) or that we can hang in through to 2020 - by what means? - a series of protests and insurrections? How is it going to work? How are working people going to be better off?

Let's not forget that the EU has never had anything to say about wage levels, which are a matter for individual member states - and for our own power to organise.

Democracy is a construct. Last year I read a fantastic accessible book - Sapiens by Noah yuval Harari - all about how our big ideas - nationhood, capitalism, globalisation, Christianity, are collective myths we have all opted to buy into. None of them are fixed and immutable, and the EU certainly is not incompatible with 'democracy'.

More importantly, 'nationhood' is no longer the 'be all and end all' as an organising principle. Many of our biggest challenges - technological change, climate change, threats of war from Russia, to name but three, need a coordinated response from nations working together. I'm sorry that we decided instead to leave the table, all the more so when you remember that we had the best deal of all the member states - no single currency, break on migration, no schengen.

However you square it, if you set aside confirmation bias and look at the big picture, it is impossible to see this as a positive development for workers. Smallfox is right.

Sorry about long post! I'm on the train!

fantastic accessible book - Sapiens by Noah yuval Harari

I'm reading that now, an enjoyable read!

Shining I'm going to hear him speak in September - launching his new book looking forwards into the future. I'm looking forward as I thought his sapiens book was v thought provoking!

Completely agree that nationalism, or the insistence that nations states' sovereignty is the ultimate goal, needs criticising.

Remember reading about it in a History of the World:

About the 1900s:

'It wasn't just the matter of established top-dogs not wanting to give way. New national states often showed signs of behaving v competitively towards one another, as well as towards old opponents, and that might be dangerous to peace. As soon as one nationalism was satisfied, another one would turn up. (...) And did not the well-being of European nations in the end rest in some degree on their colonial empires? Perhaps [nationalism] needed rather more careful scrutiny before one could be sure it really did point towards a happier and better future for mankind.'

Still stands today, still can't see the point of nationalism today.

smallpox both myself and DH are currently writing papers on the possible impacts of the vote for our respective industries. This isn't a point scoring exercise on social media for me. It's entirely up to you whether you want to conduct more thorough research or not.

Perhaps the posters coming on trying to troll the thread should read it too. Then they might realise that working hours directives have no impact when you don't have a job.

Not only that, signing a waiver has been made so easy that it a routine condition of much low-pay work.

Polly Toynbee documented 15 years ago, (while she was trying to live on minimum wage) that applicants for agency work were given scruffy waivers with the sheaf of paperwork they were issued just to register with London temp agencies.

It's all very well posters repeating and repeating that 'the EU is the organisation guaranteeing employment rights' but in practice the UK government can and does neuter them all, so for practical purposes there're are none.

Yes ill take a look at homo deus when it comes out

Also Kevin Kelly's 'the inevitable' for a bit of future gazing

That's fine, you might be writing them, but the stuff I've read from a wide range of different bodies indicates that the short term 5-10 year prospects are poor, far too much is dependent on what trade deal we get with Europe.

If you look at the trends over the last few days, the construction sector and the service sector have contracted, the financial sector is making contingency plans, all of the industry bodies for the phrarma industry, engineering, car manufacturing have all said that their preferred stance was to remain in the EU and that further investment would depend on what deal we get if we come out.

On my research? Well as I said, I've read extensively on this topic, I've even contributed to some studies my self.

Oh god if I give away any more I'm sure to be outed.

Just5, by the same token if the UK can and does neuter them all, it means there's no great democratic deficit in the EU.
And the fact that these pieces of paper waiving rights has to be signed does mean that the UK is not potentially fast on its way to looking like US.
When I signed up in my temp agency they told me it was entirely up to me and didn't seem to care what i chose.

Just5, by the same token if the UK can and does neuter them all, it means there's no great democratic deficit in the EU.

If you were right, the EU would just be an expensive folly. But the UK government doesn't neuter ALL EU law.

One of the issues is that the UK government of the day can opt-out of anything they dislike (usually anything they consider anti-business, ie, pro-worker) but they shrug shoulders and say 'nothing we can do, it's the EU you know' when that suits them. So many UK voters feel ill-served and that they have no recourse to representation, because nobody seems to own responsibility for a law. There's a fair dollop of truth in that perception.

We've always been half-hearted members. If we'd been wholehearted about the EU, it might have gained more popularity.

brexit may or may not prove to be counter productive in the long run but the point is that if those in power take the piss too much, if inequality rises then there will be a populist backlash.

If you can see that the pie is getting bigger but only some people get a bigger slice then resentment and frustration builds up and people take whatever opportunity is available to change things or make some kind of protest.

Elites should know that it is dangerous to push the people too far, the mob with their pitchforks WILL come for them

ShiningExample, history has shown us again and again and again that that is not how it goes.

When poverty increases, people tend to turn on their neighbours not their oppressors, at best they'll turn to new oppressors who turn out to be worse than the ones that came before

When poverty increases, people tend to turn on their neighbours not their oppressors, at best they'll turn to new oppressors who turn out to be worse than the ones that came before

yes I'm with you on that, elites can insulate themselves to a certain extent from the consequences of exploiting the people, but it is still problematic for them because it makes society unstable.
Perhaps a small underclass, a precariat can be controlled to an extent but as greater numbers of people are pissed off the more difficult it is to contain things.

History is not always an exact guide, tides shift, underlying forces shaping events change so that things pan out differently than might be expected

Elites should know that it is dangerous to push the people too far, the mob with their pitchforks WILL come for them

The poll tax riots are a perfect example of that.

Still with the elites narrative?

Mango I knew when my mild mannered dad refused to sign me up for the polll tax that things had gone awry in the nation.

Yes, I'm channelling Claig😇😙

Bakewell

Shining
I heart Claig!

You are not mad. The EU is not a socialist paradise, it's a trading bloc. The late Tony Benn (and of course Jeremy Corbyn) campaigned against it because they believed it would undermine the unions and just be a source of cheap labour to keep down wages. Don't want a poorly paid job with bad conditions? Someone from eastern Europe will snap it up.