Anyone else baffled by this portrayal of the EU as progressive and liberal

[Roonerspism]

It struck me today watching the march that the EU is now being protrayed as this liberal force across European states promoting fair standards for all.

From the moment I knew I no longer believed in the EU, about five years ago, it was because I saw it as the exact opposite.

And it was this that underpinned my vote to Leave.

I'm essentially left leaning and feel increasingly lost in this sea of protests!

The EU has never meant "Europe" to me and is rather the desire for a distant superstate with power in the most powerful few countries. Indeed, the current austerity placed on the Southern European countries, to the benefit of the north seems to go unnoticed to the devastated UK youth who seem not to consider the hugely unemployed youth in south Europe.

This is a capitalist project and not a humanitarian one. The reason for free movement of people as a core concept is not because it's nice to travel but solely to ensure corporations have access to a mobile and cheap workforce this encouraging greater integration. Never mind if this decimates the country of origin.

The misery of the infliction of a single currency on countries as disparate as Germany and Greece and the subsequent power held by Germany will cause untold suffering for at least a generation.

The talks to promote TTIP have largely been held in secret and further underlines the utterly undemocratic nature of this regime.

Yet here we all are. Waving our EU flags.

I'm utterly bemused. Am I mad?!?!?!

Fawful.
I was picking up the point that Remainers made about the stupid racists ignoring expert opinion. It's easy to sit in your tower and have a theoretical opinion when you aren't the one on the receiving end of the dross.

I can't be ignored.

Fawful

I disagree with the democratic arguments, it's constantly rehashed but essentially, the eu has a civil service, directly elected MEPs, and fora for directly elected heads of state to negotiate. That's it. There's no secret cabal making the decisions that those two groups don't ultimately decide. Everything is done to a strict percentage reflecting share of population. Yes, YOU might be happy with that, because you feel that your interests are being represented. The fact that so many people voted to Leave shows that they feel their interests are NOT being represented. People point out that you can elect your MEP. But you do not have any direct control over the Commissioners, or the President, who can shape the direction and the purpose of the "European Project", as they will insist upon calling it. There is great discontent across Europe, because of this feeling that ordinary people are being let down by exactly this system. Far right groups benefit because they listen to people. You cannot keep silencing people and repeating that their concerns are meaningless and expect that problem to go away. The turnout in the referendum alone shows that when people think that their vote counts, they will vote. That message alone is clear: centralised, unrepresentative government doesn't work.

Right, better go to work!

My Conservative MP has told me (face to face) that he favours a litigation society over a welfare state. He is thoroughly convince that this will be fair and right. Disabled people should find someone to sue, literally this is what he told me!

So, mini-USA it is then

(Walking to work) Sorry I derailed the thread. Appala was making v interesting points about how the UK would not have helped Greece more. The EU's attitude to Greece had been given as a reason why they voted Leave by many so it's interesting to see if it rested on much.

"Yes, YOU might be happy with that, because you feel that your interests are being represented. The fact that so many people voted to Leave shows that they feel their interests are NOT being represented."

Isn't this at least partly because our "representatives" - Farage et al - have simply sat on their bottoms moaning and not achieving anything - and indeed actively campaigning to send home a message of negativity, for the last how many years?

Obviously they are not the only representatives - but they are certainly the most vocal - in an altogether destructive (and lately really quite vile) way.

Figment - it may also be related to the fact that the UK has systematically opted-out of practically every move by the EU to improve the lives of ordinary citizens. If the EU looks like a capitalist project from a UK point of view, it is because that is what the UK has wanted it to be.

I've posted this before, but the EU's attitude to Greece is only part of the problem

A big part of the Greece's woes isn't just the debt they ran up, but the fact that a huge part of the economy operates "informally", essentially paying no tax. Scams like leaving some scaffolding on your house so it is "unfinished" and therefore tax exempt abound. Greece is also under significant pressure politically to spend more on defence than other EU nations. Pensionable age was lower than in the UK and many public sector employees retired early, the public sector was bloated with lots of people employed to do very little and collective bargaining saw far higher wages being paid from the public purse than would be available in other countries.

The situation in Greece is far more nuanced than "bad EU."

Caitlinohara - my views are not represented by the government in power, or indeed by the EU, and have almost never been represented by my MP. My point is, that isn't undemocratic. I would like to live in something approaching a socialist state. The majority of people around me would not. I would rather pay higher taxes and have better public services- most people disagree. My issue is I don't think the way the EU is governed is less democratic than the way the UK is, and on balance, I think it offers slightly more protections, and a slightly better framework, for vulnerable members of society than living in the UK without EU membership does. It's not a utopia, it's just on balance better than the alternative.

Democracy means many things, commissioners are appointed by elected governments. I firmly believe article 50 should be enacted, despite wanting a remain vote, as people's views should be heard.

I also entirely agree that people who voted leave on the whole had totally correct grievances. But... I've voted against the government, I've personally lobbied against cuts to the NHS and zero hours contracts. I don't know what else can be done when the government is the way it is. And on balance, I think that people who voted leave because they thought they would have better prospects will be proved wrong.

Id be delighted if I'm wrong. I think this has highlighted the power of the working class vote and shows real dissatisfaction with the way austerity policy has impacted people's lives. I really hope it galvanises a movement, and that people who see this as a positive opportunity will make sure that it is progressive voices negotiating the governments priorities in the next two years. This government, and the media, terrifies me though, and I'm not sure it will work like that.

Very good point bumbledumb, the UK is by far the most neo liberal in its approach economically in the EU.

Just read this on Facebook and thought relevant to this thread medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-want-to-stop-something-exploitative-divisive-and-dishonest-conversation-with-a-leaver-af77afb1773f#.asyrfjfxf

Me too. To be honest, if our domestic government was different, I might have been a strong leave voter.. but leaving now is IMO out of the frying pan into the fire.

Unfortunately those on the leave side didn't have the luxury of waiting for an ideal government. The referendum was the first in 41 years, so it's not as if there was likely to be another opportunity any time soon.

The situation in Greece is far more nuanced than "bad EU."

Which comes right back round to the question:

How can one size fit all, when there is such disparity between the member states?
Economically?
Culturally?
Politically?
Geographical area size?
Population size?

Mrsvilliers, thanks for that link!

That is precisely where I am coming from (although not nearly as knowledgable as the dad).

It's the whole, entire premise of the EU that I voted against - not any one part of it.

I shall be dropping that link liberally around threads I think.

That was very interesting, MrsVilliers!

I followed some links out from that and also found this of value: LSE • the EU locked in neoliberalism

Greece is also under significant pressure politically to spend more on defence than other EU nations

Really? What does the EU have to do with the defence spend of Greece, as the EU has, according to many, no defence capability.

Greece does spend more than other NATO nations, who also happen to be EU member states, because of the historical situation with its Turkish next door neighbour.

Greece has been under pressure from the Eurogroup and the IMF to cut their defence spend, iirc, and in fact did so.

The EU doesn't put the pressure on Greece, the electorate does, precisely because of the historical situation with Turkey.

Jesus Christ scary you just go out do disagree with everything I say, but every time you get caught out. Not exactly a challenge.

Great article MrsVilliers

It was good wasn't it? Put on Facebook by someone I would have assumed was massively remain. I read somewhere that 42% of wealthy and professionals voted for Brexit so it is reassuring to read articles like this.

I read that too Mrs Villiers! 42 per cent is a LOT more than is asserted in the press

Doesn't fit with the Sun reading racist rhetoric does it?!

Yes, I must try to become more bigoted.

42%
Wow.