Anyone else baffled by this portrayal of the EU as progressive and liberal

[Roonerspism]

It struck me today watching the march that the EU is now being protrayed as this liberal force across European states promoting fair standards for all.

From the moment I knew I no longer believed in the EU, about five years ago, it was because I saw it as the exact opposite.

And it was this that underpinned my vote to Leave.

I'm essentially left leaning and feel increasingly lost in this sea of protests!

The EU has never meant "Europe" to me and is rather the desire for a distant superstate with power in the most powerful few countries. Indeed, the current austerity placed on the Southern European countries, to the benefit of the north seems to go unnoticed to the devastated UK youth who seem not to consider the hugely unemployed youth in south Europe.

This is a capitalist project and not a humanitarian one. The reason for free movement of people as a core concept is not because it's nice to travel but solely to ensure corporations have access to a mobile and cheap workforce this encouraging greater integration. Never mind if this decimates the country of origin.

The misery of the infliction of a single currency on countries as disparate as Germany and Greece and the subsequent power held by Germany will cause untold suffering for at least a generation.

The talks to promote TTIP have largely been held in secret and further underlines the utterly undemocratic nature of this regime.

Yet here we all are. Waving our EU flags.

I'm utterly bemused. Am I mad?!?!?!

Ojos

Ditto JM90914.

Also, less than half the population voted Tories (because not everyone voted... it should really be mandatory with fines, like other countries have it). If this was truly a democracy, we would have proportional representation and coalitions.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/if-we-dont-talk-about-immigration-now-there-will-be-hell-to-pay/ touches on some of the concerns about the EU being a capitalist project. My ds was surprised to see such an article from Janet Daley, and found himself nodding in agreement with quite a lot of what she says (and he is centre left).

As for voting being compulsory I disagree; having the right not to vote is very important, as it can express your dissatisfaction, and saves you spoiling your ballot paper.

scaryteacher

Wouldn't that be solved by a box that says "I'm dissatisfied with my options"?

At least that would show you who really is dissatisfied vs. the couch potato that couldn't be arsed.

scary

Ok, let's assume that the EU is pure capitalism at the expense of the worker.

How is voting to leave and putting the resolution to that into the hands of the Tory party and UKIP (a party of Tories who were too Tory for the actual Tories) going to solve the problem of crony capitalism?

That's like getting stabbed in the kidney, then handing your attacker a scalpel and asking them to perform a transplant.

What is in the hands of UKIP jm?

Very very little, thank goodness.

Thanks for your replies... It's very interesting. It's a shame that none of our political parties (particularly labour) have been strong enough to unite over the referendum. I suppose it was always going to be a divisive decision though. Scary how there seems to be a power vacuum emerging that is ripe for the far right to take advantage of due I guess to its united stance on the ref.

You are not mad OP.

There is lots wrong with what the EU is and with what it does, most of it stemming from the single currency.

The question though is whether Brexit will make these problems better or worse.

It will make them worse, both for us and the EU.

If the British Government was doing things you thought were damaging, would you conclude the UK should be instantly dissolved?

As I understand it, the EU countries select a President who sets out an agenda. He puts those resolutions forward for votes. In certain situations one country can veto a resolution. That, for me, is where democracy falls down. MEPs think the move between Brussels and Strasbourg is silly but the French govt vetoes a change.
I got a lot of flack in the 90s for arguing against the Euro. My simplistic argument was that I didn't understand how very different economies could be made to work under one system. My friends didn't like that and I was accused of all sorts.
I have this nagging feeling that the more you suppress differences, the more they become important. I would prefer to embrace difference than suppress it.

Snowbells not unless you put on an 'I can't be arsed to vote because I despise the lot of you box'. I think having the freedom not to vote, even if registered, is part of a democracy and is part of freedom of choice.

I refuse to be registered to vote in Belgium as I disagree with having to vote if registered.

jm90914 Some Tories do recognise the problems and would like to address them. Just because someone is Tory doesn't mean they are devoid of all feeling.

"How is voting to leave and putting the resolution to that into the hands of the Tory party..."

They get voted out in the next general election. We need more people signing petitions for another GE than for another referendum.

Now is the time for real change. Completely agree with the op, have had doubts about the EU for years too.

What way do you all think the Americans will vote? Who will be the next president?

scary

I know you don't like the EU, but voting is mandatory in Australia, too. Not just Belgium!

I don't think that 'freedom to not vote' is part of democracy - and I did study politics. In fact, the less people vote, the more it isn't one. One day, you might as well be a dictatorship...

I am completely baffled by it and by the many people who seem to have accepted it unthinkingly. If you look back to the 1975 vote on Europe, the majority of Labour members were against it because they recognised the inherent unfairness of its structure, the fact it disadvantaged workers and that it's main impetus was to serve big business rather than people.

Add to that, it's inability to adapt to the different needs of its members and a structure that has always benefitted stronger members over weak ones.

But tbh I am also amazed that people think because they look as far as Europe that they are somehow internationalists. What about the continents we decimated in the name of building an Empire? What about the Commonwealth? Someone living on less than $1 a day needs our help much more than someone in Europe. And African economists were urging people to vote against the EU as it disadvantages emerging trading nations in Africa.

Supporting the EU is about supporting the status quo regardless of the fact the status quo doesn't work for poor communities, smaller EU members, Africa or parts of Asia.

The EU is about supporting corporates. It's not (and has never been) about peace or justice or equality.

Winnie - do you think Brexit will benefit "the continents we decimated in building an empire"?

Perhaps with Labour jumping from cliffs of their own volition we'll have a UKIP opposition.

This article makes it sound like this will happen . Not UKIP but Aaron Banks' proposed party.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/leave-donor-plans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage

Unfortunately, when Scotland vote for independence as a result of the referendum it will be much harder for us in England to vote the Tories out.

Good point Rose... We're doomed then 😞

Well, the power is now shifting to a right-wing faction of the Tories that nobody voted for (in which the key figures appear to live in the pocket of Rupert Murdoch), and who say there will be no general election. Translated: no choice, even though you didn't vote for them.

^ this

I'm a remainer but I can get on board with left-wing reasons for leaving the EU. However, there seems to be nothing on the table that approaches what left-leaning leavers would be voting for. All of the tory leadership candidates seem to be positioning themselves on the anti-immigration, leave the single market side of the debate.

Yes, there should be a general election called but that doesn't mean there will be. Theoretically, the invoking of Article 50 and the following negotiations could be completed by a Tory government under Gove or Leadsome. Even if an election were called, the labour party is in disarray and we could end up with a Tory government supported by UKIP! Hard to see how this would get any leftist views on the table.

I think that Leave voters who want to see changes that are not related to immigration need to make their voices heard by Parliament. At the moment, the government seems to be setting its agenda by reading the comments section of the Daily Mail....

At least in the UK, to an extent, there is a democratically elected government. Which is voted in every four years.
The Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 must've passed you by

I have this nagging feeling that the more you suppress differences, the more they become important. I would prefer to embrace difference than suppress it.

Agree Giddy; that exact premise has now become the attitude for a lot of things.

For eg, now 'Diversity & Inclusivity' is promoted instead of 'Equality'.

Equality across the shop doesn't work - only by acknowledging differences, then including & celebrating them, can things work.

But tbh I am also amazed that people think because they look as far as Europe that they are somehow internationalists.

That has been baffling me too Winnie!

grace I'm going to put my neck on the line here and state that the problems with free movement of people are a left wing issue. This is why most people leaning to the right don't have a problem with it.

Free movement, as stated above, is fundamental to the EU not to encourage travel but so that corporations can access cheap and mobile labour. It works pretty well when the member states are fairly similar in terms of living standards. Watch what happens when that changes.

It results in large numbers of young people choosing to leave their developing home country in search of the advantages of the wealthier economies. And that is what any of us would do.

They generally come to where living costs are lower so in the UK this means where there are already problems in relation to unemployment and housing. Yet as demonstrated, they are often highly motivated people who work hard and rarely claim benefits. Thus the government is happy. The local populace? Less so.

The local populace tries to explain that it is struggling. That huge numbers of people arriving in a decade has changed many towns. But, in the words of Gordon Brown, they are "bigots".

So they start to support UKIP or, heaven forbid, the far right like BNP. These are the only parties that will listen.

And we then have a huge referendum. When it is explained to people that free movement is wonderful. It brings diversity. It brings in extra tax. It provides cheap labour. Any attempt by these people who ask meekly how free movement has helped them is deriled and mocked as xenophobic.

What does the already disenfranchised vote?

There were left wing labour MPs in favour of Brexit. Corbyn himself was but couldn't say it.

And then we have the countries from which these talented motivated people have left. They come here with degrees and clean toilets and work in cafes.

Please can anyone explain to me why this is GOOD except from a right wing capitalist persepective?!?!

(Please note. I voted Leave. I'm highly educated. I don't live in a Leave voting region)

Fair point, but like it or not I still believe that if we lose access to the single market, the economy will be hit badly and it will likely be the poorest that suffer most, especially under a right-leaning government.

Also, the idea is that by the EU expanding to include poorer nations, those nations will in turn become more prosperous and therefore standards of living should rise there, meaning less people should feel the need to move to work in a "wealthier" country. I appreciate that's a very long game to play though!

It's too long a game for me. The US had a hundred years to do it.

In the meantime, the countries in the south are shafted.

What tipped it for me Grace is that I think in a few years, our economy will be stronger overall.

I did contemplate a Remain vote for the short term concerns but godammit, I couldn't do it.