Anyone else baffled by this portrayal of the EU as progressive and liberal

[Roonerspism]

It struck me today watching the march that the EU is now being protrayed as this liberal force across European states promoting fair standards for all.

From the moment I knew I no longer believed in the EU, about five years ago, it was because I saw it as the exact opposite.

And it was this that underpinned my vote to Leave.

I'm essentially left leaning and feel increasingly lost in this sea of protests!

The EU has never meant "Europe" to me and is rather the desire for a distant superstate with power in the most powerful few countries. Indeed, the current austerity placed on the Southern European countries, to the benefit of the north seems to go unnoticed to the devastated UK youth who seem not to consider the hugely unemployed youth in south Europe.

This is a capitalist project and not a humanitarian one. The reason for free movement of people as a core concept is not because it's nice to travel but solely to ensure corporations have access to a mobile and cheap workforce this encouraging greater integration. Never mind if this decimates the country of origin.

The misery of the infliction of a single currency on countries as disparate as Germany and Greece and the subsequent power held by Germany will cause untold suffering for at least a generation.

The talks to promote TTIP have largely been held in secret and further underlines the utterly undemocratic nature of this regime.

Yet here we all are. Waving our EU flags.

I'm utterly bemused. Am I mad?!?!?!

Presumably under a post brexit system, sectors with high demand but low supply - eg care work - will still be able to recruit from overseas when they can show a need.

Also, separately, the govt needs to raise the status of care work, providing better opportunities to get transferable qualifications and a more defined career path.

My mum was in a dementia care home for two years before she died. I wouldn't describe these jobs as low skill. Low pay, yes, but low skill, no.

Presumably under a post brexit system, sectors with high demand but low supply - eg care work - will still be able to recruit from overseas when they can show a need.

Some nursing homes already do to a small extent, and this will increase. Do you think they treat people whose visas are tied to THAT job well? Have a guess? Standards for the employees go up or down? Moral goes up or down? When moral goes down, do people get more caring?

• That'll increase after Brexi

Lolo there is a WORLD of difference between voluntarily applying for a job because you think it's the only job you'll get, and being PLACED in the job under jobfayre or the youth equivalent: modern apprenticeships. The former can quit, change agencies, change to another care home. They are relatively free and not a captive audience to whatever shit that particular employer wants to throw at them. The latter are sitting ducks, Standards lower as does moral

No, care is not great as it is, but its going to get a lot worse without free movement and a pool of people who can leave bad employers for better ones within the sector

If we have a points system then it'll only be the people applying for more desirable jobs who will be free to change employers as they will be here in their own right

for the lower paid jobs where there is a "need", the employers themselves will act as sponsors, and if they treat their staff bad and the staff quit - bye bye visa

NOT a recipe for improved standards.

Low paid jobs will still be low paid jobs, they'll just get a whole lot more miserable than they already are

And there's all kinds of other nasty employment practices that can be exploited if you have people working here whose visas are linked to that one job/employer.

If they quit they can have "expenses" deducted from their final pay cheque, so they get nothing. The contracts can be written so that it's all "free training, free this, free that, but actually, it's not free, it is conditional on staying on afterwards for whatever amount of years/months. So that the employer can get out of paying them for work they've done if they quit/leave early

Couldn't agree with the OP more.

This idea that the EU is some sort of utopia is mad. 50% youth unemployment and 80% declines in some property values and Londoners (well people that live in London anyway) are worried because their 1 bed flat in Islington will lose 10% to £900k.

So much for Internationalism.

Well this guy says it for me - this is what we were afraid of -

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/disaster-capitalism-tory-right-brexit-roll-back-state

Was it worth it?

What a load of rubbish Helpful Dad.

The EU is more progressive than what we will get instead.

figment the Tories will always find an excuse to cut services.

Smallfox same again.

So we need to get rid.

What's the point of voting in a Labour govt and then finding out that they couldn't offer state aid or prevent privatisation of the NHS because the EU wouldn't let them? One step at a time.

I think we have different definitions of voluntary.

But actually, just wanting to try to take this down a bit as my initial comment was much ruder than it needed to be and I'm sorry for that. I read it back just now and the sarcastic first sentence was needlessly inflammatory.

lolo... it wasnt inflammatory. No need for an apology for that.

So let me get this right so far with the latest round, smallfox says the free movement of people actually only really negatively impacts the very very poor.....so thats ok then..... and adulting is saying that being overseen and controlled by an unelected council in Brussels is fundamentally better that trusting our own government....
Contraction in various industries is down to a 2 week old brexit vote, utterly ignoring the economic situation pre referendum i.e. Deutschbank called the peak of the London property market last year.......and all major big hitters are forecasting doom because smallfox has insider knowledge.....

Just trying to keep up ........ lolo youre not inflammatory

Illuminating as ever to read about the extremely low opinion we have of our low-skilled population.

Always a joy to read about just how downright awful they are.

I wonder if perhaps it is the same sort of self-fulfilling prophecy we all rail against wrt disadvantaged or 'problem' children?
If you label them enough & tell them how shit they are, then it becomes the new truth?
The more they're told how utterly crap they are the more it seems pointless to try and prove otherwise because everybody's stopped listening or looking for the good in them?

May as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb etc...

Illuminating as ever to read about the extremely low opinion we have of our low-skilled population. Always a joy to read about just how downright awful they are

It's working environments that usually make for low moral unhappy unmotivated workers.

Working environments will get worse not better without free movement, so the low skilled work force will be more unhappy, and will in turn be less motivated at work

Nobody is saying the low skilled work force are awful, but there is no denying that workers are better when they have happier colleagues.

Colleagues who aren't on employer linked visas or workfayre. Colleagues who aren't forced to be there

I agree with that, adulting, definitely.

I think the fundamental flaw with this thread is the idea that we will now vote in a socialist government who will be able to act on all these socialist ideals free from EU intervention. Unfortunately, I think that's pie in the sky! Even if Labour did manage to win a general election (looking increasingly unlikely under JC), they still have to work within the confines of our largely right-leaning society.

We need to balance these idealistic visions with a healthy dose of pragmatism. Yes, one would hope that what is starting to look like a big swerve to the right from the Tory party will inspire momentum for the left, but I think the most realistic way forward is some sort of progressive alliance that can appeal to voters.

Exactly - I think the optimists on this thread just need to take a look at their new bed fellows to discern the direction of travel -

• Paul nuttall
• chris grayling
• IdS
• the Adam smith institute

I could continue.

To ask again - was it worth it?

Was what worth what, exactly? You mean, where we are now? A week and a half on? If you think Leave voters didn't expect short term uncertainty then no wonder you didn't see the Leave vote coming.

Ps Adam Smith Institute? Why so sneering? It's campaign for a Leave the EU position was well argued unlike virtually any Remain argument I read. Sneer at your peril!

I'm just baffled by the Labour party, and I say this as a member. They are so bloody defeatist. The attitude seems to be "well, we're obviously not going to win an election, so we'd better stay in the EU because the Tories can do less damage that way". It's that kind of gloomy, self defeating attitude that ensures they WON'T win. Oh, that and dismissing their core supporters' views on immigration.

I don't think I'll ever forgive Corbyn for bottling it and backing Remain.

Might defect to the Socialist Labour Party. They are probably all mad as frogs, but at least they know what they are about.

I blame Tony Blair. Bastard.

caitlin, agree. Im still attempting to reconcile David Cameron.....claiming 'a strong opposition is healthy for the country' calling for JC to resign .....to ensure a remain led centre party is in opposition..........

The question for the last 2 generations has been, Opposition? What Opposition?

When those 'stupid ill informed' voters have been telling pre GE election pollsters/media "Im not voting, theyre all the same" they were absolutely right!! But hey, what did they know....far too complex ......

What are Labour core supporters' views on immigration?

You'll have to remind us who the Labour core supporters are Faw. Nobody seems sure.

The bedfellows of Leave are the far right across Europe - e.g. Martine Le Pen of the French Front National was campaigning for Leave alongside UKIP and she is currently displaying the Union Jack online. The far right across Europe are cheering.

Also their dear buddy Nick Griffin & the fascist BNP, the fascist Britain First, the Tory rightwing. The far left like SWP agreed with them - far left & far right often seem very similar

Donald Trump and the Republican rightwing - he made dreadful anti-immigrant videos for Leave
And to cap it all, bloody ISIS were gloating that Leave won. They think it brings their final victory against the "Crusaders" nearer - they count us & the EU as Crusaders and treat us equally as targets.

Some really strange bedfellows, sleeping with the enemy all right.

I think the fundamental flaw with this thread is the idea that we will now vote in a socialist government who will be able to act on all these socialist ideals free from EU intervention. Unfortunately, I think that's pie in the sky! I

I couldn't agree more with the Red-tories trying to move JC out, but maybe JC is a bit too far. If main parties all sit on the middle ground we will just repeat the same mistakes we are currently making.

We have the worst inequality in Europe and way to much tax evasion and avoidance going on.

The Adam Smith Institute are one of many voices across the political spectrum who think the EEU is the best Brexit option:
www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/Adam+Smith+Inst+Why+the+only+way+is+EEA+for+a+post+Brexit+Britain+05052016093500?open
It has the great advantage of being the only option we could actually negotiate within 2 years.

EEA gives all parties the chance to take the UK in their preferred direction, if they convince the electorate.
If any party is too busy fighting inside their own navel fluff to win a General Election, that's their own stupid fault.

Bigchoc yes I remember learning that stuff back in A level, comparisons being drawn between Hitler on the far right and Stalin on the far left. It's because both (claim to) represent the interests of the working poor vs (nowadays) big business and globalisation, but by somewhat different means! You can argue that socialism can't work within the EU, in fact it's hard to imagine how it can, for all the reasons upthread. That doesn't mean it is dangerous. If the 'Establishment' parties have lost this referendum, I would argue that there is more of a need for a truly left wing party to counter the potential rise of the far right. Unfortunately, we don't have a leader who seems able to capture that mood, and it's really frustrating. You missed out the Spanish far left Podemos by the way who want out of the EU, same issue, huge unemployment esp amongst youth. They will likely be having the same arguments over there, esp because one of their reasons for staying in is to keep Catalonia within Spain - it's likely that they could end up with a Scottish situation otherwise.

I wouldn't class myself as far left though. Politics has moved so far to the right in general since Blair that I think I am just ordinary left, as opposed to Tory-lite!

bogchoc thanks for that. Looks reasonable at a glance. Not sure how the "emergency brake" thing would work but it sounds like a vote winner even if they never use it .
Funny how a week ago we were told it couldn't be done and now lo and behold a compromise is possible.