Anyone else baffled by this portrayal of the EU as progressive and liberal

[Roonerspism]

It struck me today watching the march that the EU is now being protrayed as this liberal force across European states promoting fair standards for all.

From the moment I knew I no longer believed in the EU, about five years ago, it was because I saw it as the exact opposite.

And it was this that underpinned my vote to Leave.

I'm essentially left leaning and feel increasingly lost in this sea of protests!

The EU has never meant "Europe" to me and is rather the desire for a distant superstate with power in the most powerful few countries. Indeed, the current austerity placed on the Southern European countries, to the benefit of the north seems to go unnoticed to the devastated UK youth who seem not to consider the hugely unemployed youth in south Europe.

This is a capitalist project and not a humanitarian one. The reason for free movement of people as a core concept is not because it's nice to travel but solely to ensure corporations have access to a mobile and cheap workforce this encouraging greater integration. Never mind if this decimates the country of origin.

The misery of the infliction of a single currency on countries as disparate as Germany and Greece and the subsequent power held by Germany will cause untold suffering for at least a generation.

The talks to promote TTIP have largely been held in secret and further underlines the utterly undemocratic nature of this regime.

Yet here we all are. Waving our EU flags.

I'm utterly bemused. Am I mad?!?!?!

Adulting You are right of course. That's the media onslaught, which makes victims and aggressors out of us all. I do absolutely see the case for Remain, it's shoved in our face every time we turn on BBC News after all. But the voices advocating Leave are limited to the odd person a reporter will grab on the street who says something ignorant about Muslims, and Nigel bloody Farage, so it's quite nice to come on here and realise that you're not alone.

Recent history also shows us that neoliberal democracies are increasingly rolling back welfare and eroding rights (USA) in the interest of capitalism But that's entirely the stance of the EU as well...

So effectively I agree with the OP about the effect on the English towns.

Wouldn't it be good if what was bad for the English towns was also bad for the imigrants and their countries- we would have an answer! But I don't think that is so.

So to answer your OP in a nutshell for me:, I don't think the EU is perfect, I just think that our government is worse. It's a matter of picking the lesser evil, and so I picked remain.

why that depends on your definition of democracy :) the Americans are the most 'democratic' people around, but I think the American system is cruel and tyrannical . e.g. Their statutory maternity leave is 0 days. A lot of what they do (Guantanamo?) is done in the name of democracy - but they don't have to answer to anyone (I.e. No regulation, European court of human rights etc) so its a massively dangerous system in my view.

And given the home office's treatment of non EU immigrants, I also never bought into the idea that settled EU immigrants already here would be treated with any decency or humanity once we leave.

If we had an existing humane system here to build on, then my euroscepticism would have won.

Oh and "TTIP = the selling off of the NHS" = moot point, lots of it has already been sold of so..

caitlin that's the position of all neoliberal.projects including the EU, yes, but unlike single countries who can do whatever the hell they please, the EU has multiple layers of governance (plus the member states, plus being a signatory to international agreements etc) that mean in theory, we will never sink as low as some systems (looking at you again, USA). If the UK decided to scrap maternity leave altogether, say, there will be a whole host of EU regulations, courts, pressure groups to deal with. So in theory someone/something will always hold you to account on the more bonkers illiberal ideas - because of multilevel governance and regulation. Isn't the case for non-EU countries, necessarily.

My 2 biggest worries for a good brexit are the border in Northern Ireland, and the status of the city of London.

The NI border was one of the schrodingers positions in any assurances pre vote: no, nothing would change, despite the "we need to control our borders" ticket. I suspect that for all the talk about being one country and having to act as that, a special treatment will need to be given to NI which might end up being in some sort of free trade zone.

My bigger concern is for the city of London and its financial service centre status. If that is diluted or lost, the impact on the economy will be seismic.

If there is ever a side to pick, I tend to find myself with Dennis Skinner, god bless him for voting Leave.

Completely agree.

The youth of today do not realise that the UK is not a better place to live yet the majority voted remain. I despair for them. How they are expected to get decent jobs and get on the housing ladder is anyone's guess.

I sound like an old gimmer.

Regarding Greece, austerity measures weren't applied on a whim by the EU but they were presented as the solution regardless of different schools of economic thought suggesting alternatives and seemingly without the EU taking into account the particulars of Greece's economy. Austerity policies applied to a financial services or manufacturing based economy is rather different than applying them to a tourist/agricultural based economy. Imo the EU has never been good at negotiating that nuance.

The other left wing argument against the EU is environmental. Nurturing local workers and creating an economy that means they can stay and earn in their local communities (whether that be doctors in Poland or berry-pickers in Berwick) is much better for our environmental footprint.

Tbh I really struggle to see what the left-wing argument is for Remain.

Singapore you have articulated my greatest fear - that under the current government we will end up like the USA with their appalling inequalities and workers rights.

Tbh, I am ideologically committed to the EU and would have voted remain regardless. But I have found the arguments expressed on this thread interesting. I can't get on board, however, with the idea that leaving the EU will be beneficial to the welfare of the poor. Whoever said upthread that the EU's stance to capitalism is the same as the US's I don't think is correct. For one thing, the general political position of most European nations is more in favour of social welfare (German conservatism, for example, is fairly progressive) and EU legislation has to fit in with this. The EU has been heavily involved with environmental legislation, for example, that does not always favour business, which is something you don't see in the USA.

I get that many on here have valid reasons for being opposed to the EU but many of these arguments seem rooted in ideology. In practice, I fear that in real life leaving the EU behind will send us further to the right. I dread the thought of ending up like the US.

X-post with Winnie. I see ww have different views on environmental benefits! Could workers not be nurtured in their own localities within the confines of the EU?

Grace yy they could in theory. It's just not been the reality of the EU.
At an ideological level, I love the idea of an EU working to create stability, improve workers' rights and conditions, championing the environment and social welfare. I just don't think that is what the EU has become and I don't see how to reform it into that.
I don't trust them to negotiate TTIP on our behalf. And although I don't trust the Tories to do it either, as a PP pointed out, we can vote the Tories out.
I agree with you on not wanting to end up like the US. I just disagree with you on the best way to achieve that.

Great thread

Great thread

BEST Brexit thread since Brexit!

Thanks everyone for an interesting and respectful conversation so far

Agree. Excellent thread Rooner.

Just read it in one go, and every time I picked up a point to reply, somebody further down had replied.

Think the whole contradictory element will see another week of chaos ahead, Tony Benn would be utterly gobsmacked at labour! And as for students (on student loans) , well, theyve spent generations, doing what students do, fighting the 'establishment'. When the fight arrived......they voted for the establishment.

Another bemused week ahead methinks.

as for students (on student loans) , well, theyve spent generations, doing what students do, fighting the 'establishment'. When the fight arrived......they voted for the establishment
that'll be 'the new young fogeys'.....
www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/02/new-young-fogeys
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07ffkhz

Just read the article shining (not watched the prog), thats actually made me really sad. At a time in your life when you should feel invicible, full of promise for the future, that you can change the world, the reality is weve utterly knocked the confidence out of them. Worries, at that level, about the future? (and this is the elite group in the age group) Surely all sides must agree something has dramatically got to change? (And I dont mean the inheritance tax rules on the buy to let empire)

You know, the more I dig, the more passionate I feel about putting a bomb under the whole lot of 'em (establishment that is). Do I regret my vote? Not in a million years and I really hope its a catalyst for dramatic change across the nation. Please let it be so.

Another bargaining chip for the UK to use apart from the German Car industry jobs factor is British tourism to France, Spain, Greece Cyprus and Portugal etc.

The UK has a tourism deficit, it spends more in EU countries than EU tourists spend in the UK. There are many areas in Cyprus, Spain and Greece which are very reliant on tourists from the UK. Not just the people who go on holiday, but the UK reps who stay at the hotels to help deal with the big crowds, the UK travel companies, Flight companies, UK hotel booking websites and UK travel health and standard inspectors.

Now I am not saying the UK Government can say to the EU that they will stop us from taking our summer holidays to EU countries (we'd kill our Government for that) but it is something we can point out when talking about trade deals, I don't think the EU will be as able to play hardball as much as people think.

I didn't know Dennis Skinner had voted for Brexit.

I heard Alex Gordon make the RMT's (leave) position in a meeting before the referendum.

The RMT argued that directives such as working time are worse for their members, because their membership density is so high and their level of organisation is so good that they can negotiate better contract terms for their members than the EU social rights - and that EU rights had in fact harmed RMT members because employers treat them as a norm rather than a minimum floor. This is true for them, but not for any other sector - because overall, collective bargaining coverage had slumped from 82% in 1980 to 19% in 2015.

AF's argument was, in a nutshell, that this is a democracy, and that we can get our collective bargaining coverage back by voting jeremy corbyn in as the next prime minister in 2020.

AF also argued for leave based on TTIP but he couldn't answer to the danger that a uk government free of the EU is likely to vote in a TTIP equivalent that is just as bad if not worse.

Also, 2020 is a long way away, whatever hopes you place on the next election.

The consensus in the room (and of the union movement more widely I would say) was that the EU isn't great, but ten years if Tories on steroids will be far far worse. The trade union act 2016 is a taste of things to come. Think more public order offences, sequestration etc.

We were talking to ourselves, however.

I've never understood why the general population like "freedom of movement". It suits the elite, but to the masses it is the equivalent of Norman Tebbit's "get on your bike".

Purits, I like freedom of movement because I took advantage of it myself. I appreciate that not everyone does that. However, even if you don't like freedom of movement, you have to accept it if you want access to the single market. That will be the crux of the negotiations.

Op : yes, I have felt like I voted against the Star Trek Federation.