Midlle Class PC white woman don't apply feminism to their sisters.

[bkgirl]

Having a catholic background and knowing how the church was a positively evil force in the past, I really detest religion getting together with the law. It was accepted at the time as being the right thing to do despite being obviously totally abhorrant.

When I go to another country I respect it's laws. What troubles me is the acceptance of Sharia courts here.

It seems that white PC women have a dreadful habit of not supporting girls who from family or peer pressure do not somehow deserve the protection of the law. I have a real problem with Theresa May saying it benefits people greatly - frankly it only benefits MEN.

www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/03/sharia-law-and-middle-class-feminism

Sadly the fact you mention about Sweden don't surprise me Bungo. Sweden is currently experiencing a shocking escalation of rape and sexual assaults against women, attributed to the growing immigrant Muslim populations. Naturally this is being almost universally ignored by feminist groups.

It seems that when a civilisation wants to die, nothing can prevent it from going into the dark. A significant minority actually wants our society to be destroyed, and a majority is too afraid, too distracted or too unsure to do anything about it.

Sweden is currently experiencing a shocking escalation of rape and sexual assaults against women
And you can find a report of the most recent sex attacks on young Swedish girls in the Telegraph today. I have not looked, but I can bet you will not find anything in the Guardian - this is an issue they do not like to talk about. And nor do Mumsnet HQ, who shut down threads on this issue as being "deliberately inflammatory". It's maddening. How can you solve this serious problem if you can't discuss it.

In the cases of Rochdale etc, the misogynist attitudes of the predominantly white) police need to be factored in as well. It went on for so long because there was a lack of will to deal with it. I agree this was partly not to appear racist, but it was also because the police who should have been protecting those girls considered them trash as well.

I 100% agree that feminism is needed everywhere and to solely blame the perpetrators because of their assumed cultural or religious beliefs is to ignore/minimise the systematic white British beliefs that were equally as damaging.

Sharia courts in Britain are having a terrible impact on women and children. Support the organisation One Law for All, who are fighting against them.
The sharia laws the courts in Britain use, is the most regressive kind of sharia law.

If you read the report into Rochdale, the main reason the rape and abuse of girls was covered up, was because the police saw the girls as slags who were consenting to sex with multiple older men.

I've have read the Jay Report - thank you... Of course the Police were massively at fault: their complicity and failure (in the words of the jay report) was in 'downplaying' the ethnic dimensions of the inquiry so as not to be interpreted as 'racist'. The moral character of the abused girls was merely the excuse they hid behind. They did it out of fear of rocking the 'multi cultural' boat This is where their guilt lies, as it does for the relevant local authority's social service units. But who was doing the grooming, the torturing, raping, and sex trafficking in the first place - who organised and carried these atrocities out in Rotherham, Oldham, Rochdale, Derby and most recently, in Calderdale? The Police, the local council? Go on, have a good old think and try to come up with a way to downplay the cultural beliefs of Muslim men who did this. How about the girls' parents? They must have been pretty bad too right – so surely they share in the collective guilt of White British beliefs?

The Police, Social Services, the local Council, the Labour Party all wilfully ignored or dismissed claims of assault and attack on the grounds of race, "social cohesion" and cultural relativism. Does that mean the cultural values of the perpetrators should be disregarded as irrelevant? How about when these bastards doused a 15-year-old girl in petrol and threatened to set her alight should she dare to report them. Or when they menaced entire families and made young girls watch as they raped other children? This has to be seen through the prism of, 'no one is innocent especially those that hold prejudiced White British beliefs because they're equally as damaging? This is Dragonsarebest version of cultural relativism in action – right here!

Of course you won't Millyonthefloss2. The Guardian only likes to blow hot air and humbug about these things once they've been uncovered. In the case of Rotherham, they were as much part of the cover up as the Police, and the Labour led council of that town.

Actually though they are just exemplary of the disorganised, irrational, white guilt mindset, the kind which says White British beliefs are just as bad, so we must temper everything we say in light of that.

Actually you're the one demonstrating the cultural relativism, super. Right there in your post:

Re: The Elm Guest House perpetrators have never been referred to as Christians, have they?
Your answer: These perpetrators are at best, mentally ill, at worse - evil beyond belief.

So when white men of Judao-Christian background rape minors, repeatedly, in groups, and with the knowledge of the authorities, they're mentally ill or inherently evil. But anyway, it's a bewildering anomaly each and every time and nothing to do with anything.

But when Muslim men rape minors, that's a statement about Islam in general.

And again in your post just above. When police treat the victims in Rochdale as unimportant trash - just as the police did for Elm Guest House and just as they have for time immemorial - that's different and because suddenly the police were only disparaging the girls not to "rock the multicultural boat."

If you're genuinely interested in protecting women, then minimising and denying white British rape culture really isn't helpful. You can criticise and prosecute misogynist Muslim rapists very effectively without all this denial.

If you think sexual assault is the Problem; then you examine honestly and without fear the religion, or education, or culture, or economic position of women etc, as context which should be grasped and tackled in order to reduce sexual assault.

If for you a particular religion, say, is itself the Problem, then sexual assault by someone of that religion becomes the epitome of the religion. And all other sexual assaults are incomprehensible one-offs with no rhyme or reason, the acts of the mentally ill. No matter how frequently they occur, nor how many others collude with the rapist.

I don't think the latter ends up serving women (or male victims of sexual assault) well.

BTW, I agree that parts of Sharia law have no place in the UK either - certainly not the bits that conflict with UK law.

(There's financial stuff about loans in Sharia law that's neither here nor there, which is why I'm being precise.)

I don't want to "save" Muslim women. They are free to make personal choices which others see as bad for society, as are we all. And I am free to point out misogyny when I see it and ask that the authorities try to ensure that it is not forced on those who can't or don't make these choices. You might find the women most in need of rights and support are the ones who aren't commenting on mumsnet.

venusinscorpio, I agree strongly with this post of yours at Sat 02-Jul-16 11:20:23.

I don't want to "save" Muslim women. They are free to make personal choices which others see as bad for society, as are we all. And I am free to point out misogyny when I see it and ask that the authorities try to ensure that it is not forced on those who can't or don't make these choices. You might find the women most in need of rights and support are the ones who aren't commenting on mumsnet.

YY to that!

And that's why I believe it's also so important to follow the law, law that is there to protect the more vulnerable members of the society.

One of the big isues too is about who is suppose to adapt to the other. Do you expect people with a different culuiture to adapt to the law of the country they are living in? r do you expect the country to adapt to these different cultures and allow different rules ofr different people?
(I'm obvioulsy talking at the level of the law here. But the law has some influence on a lot of aspect of our lifes, from fgm to financial issues) organisation etc)

First - who's denying that rape occurs here in Britain, carried out by White men? Don't put words in my mouth just because your leftist world – view is being challenged – please!

Muslim men come from a deeply misogynist culture and are preached at from an early age, by Imams, to regard women, especially here in the West, who do not cover themselves up in public as “ uncovered meat”. These are not fringe figures, or eccentric isolated loonies voicing opinions of their own. These are the key figures in the lives of these men. They are preach to men that gay people and infidels deserve death. Your wife cannot refuse you sex and should you beat her to a pulp, you undoubtedly had good reason to do so, and God will forgive you. I don't know how I can make this any clearer, but - the degradation of non-Muslims is the essence of Islamic religious practice. Do you understand what that means? This means it is a matter of religious obligation to subjugate women, and particularly to view non-Muslim women as commodities and as fair game.

My point about the Elm House paedophiles is that as that - White, Christian paedophiles (if that is what they are)? Do not commit their vile acts because they are inspired and have been sanctioned by their key religious / societal representatives, upon who's every word they hang and believe come directly from the mouth of God, to do so. Their religion, even if they do have one that is at very centre of their world, does not calls for it and does not tell them it makes God happy to do so. Indeed in Britain if a man beats his wife half to death he is imprisoned for a long time. In Islamic countries, he will at worse be directed to an community elder (a male elder, obviously) for a chat. Now which for you is the more insidious problem?

I spent the first twelve years of my life in Malaysia, living as a Muslim. I'm not claiming that that makes me an expert. But if you wish to believe that there's an equivalent 'rape culture' here in Britain like there is in Islamic countries, then you're living with the fairies I'm afraid.

People who are scared to condemn Islamic practices because they 'don't want to tell brown people what to think and do', they really have no idea of how much need that there is for them to do just that! This idea that Non-Western women 'do not need saving' - is just wrong. They do, believe me they do, no matter what they tell you in defence of the oppressive Islamic culture that they've grown up to accept as normal.

Don't tell yourselves that you are being 'insulting' and 'condescending' by working for their freedom. Women in Islamic cultures have not benefited from 3 waves of feminism as you have. They have no Suffragettes to admire and take inspiration from. Believe me, the types of oppression that women in Islamic societies face daily makes what the Suffragettes and the first wave of feminists in The West went through, seem like a picnic. In Islamic countries women are beaten and thrown in jail where they are tortured and gang raped daily for being "adulterous". They can be beheaded and have parts of their bodies amputated also, for the types of things that we here in Britain would consider completely within her rights to do. Every effort should be made to pressure the gov'ts of these Islamic countries to overturn unjust laws must be supported. These women need all the help they can get. It is not condescending, That's white guilt talking. Please be confident in your cultural values, it is the only humane thing to do

Goodness me this is time consuming. I think I've said it all...

And don't put words in mine, either.

I didn't say you were denying rape happens in Britain, I said you were denying the rape culture here.

It doesn't have to look identical to the rape culture you are describing in Malaysia to be a rape culture. It doesn't have to be driven by religion, and nor does it have to be of the same magnitude, to be a rape culture.

And by using all-encompassing phrases like "Islamic practices" as a proxy for "sexual abuse and misogyny", and lionising "Western culture" as the solution, you undermine the lived experiences of people abused under eg state-enforced Catholic culture, as the OP describes.

While simultaneously ensuring you'll have basically no impact on Muslim abusers or victims, because you've drawn the battle line as between Islam and Judao-Christianity or "The West". Thus requiring people to reject their entire cultural and faith package (fasting, charity, education, the lot) in favour of a competing entire package, before they can move to the Not Fucking Abusing People stance.

All this in the context of decades of Islamic proselytists gaining immense ground by presenting themselves as anti-Imperialists, particularly in the former British Empire. Which is ironic, given the current Islamist project for an Islamic Empire but hey, who said rationality came into it?

So I really don't think this is going to get you where you want to go.

(I'm assuming where you want to go is women having rights, rather than The Triumph of the West.)

Drawing up the battle lines as Islamic vs Judao-Christianity also means you find you've made common cause with some Christian countries which are home to some very nasty mainstream cultures, where beating one's wife actually to death for not having food hot on the table in the wee small hours gets you a finger wag from the magistrate who says any red-blooded male would have done it. And raping a 5-yr-old gets a suspended sentence as it was a first offence.

So really, I'm going to name the things I actually find abhorrent - misogyny and sexual violence (and I can add homophobia to that list).

Stating which banner it's done under can be very helpful context, all the better to combat the abuse, but combatting the abuse remains the end for me, not capturing the banner.

But it isn't in their culture and therefore it isn't as insidious a problem. There is no 'culture of rape' here in Britain. Note I said no "culture" of rape...There is rape and its equally terrible as the Muslim variety, but compared to the numbers of Muslims here in Britain? It's undeniable that there is a totally disproportionate number of Muslim rape gangs operating here it is endemic in Islamic culture. It is so endemic because it is religiously sanctioned. That's the difference. Jeez...

There is a culture of appaluing misogyny in Islam. We cant be surprised that the men who are coming to Europe with this deep cultural conviction are taking it out on women and girls here in the UK and in the rest of Europe.

No I do believe in the triumph of the West. Of course that's abhorrent thing to say to a lefty, for whom a narrative of the Muslim world as victims and the West as victimisers is so precious.

The West has gender equality enshrined in law. gay people, Disabled people, people of whatever religion they choose have equal rights before the law. So yes I do and I'm totally unashamed by it. As we all should be.. Here in the West, all people are protected by the International declaration of Human rights, the European convention on human rights and we have the same protection in UK domestic law by virtue of the human rights act 1998. In Islamic countries there exists Islamic/Shariah law. Which is totalitarian, unbelievably bigoted and hateful especially against women. Yes I would like to see the Western standard adopted all over the world.

And while I'm here, I'll add something else that's been bothering me. (Not a comment on any particular post on this thread.)

I keep seeing people - especially on MN - using phrases like "British values" or "Western values" as a proxy, where they appear to mean "women's rights" or "freedom from sexual abuse for women, children and men".

Well that's all very lovely, but off MN there's a sizeable chunk of the UK population (never mind the population of the nebulous "West" entire) for whom these phrases mean nothing of the sort.

For whom "British values" mean the right of a man to grab the body of a woman in a lift, to financially abuse a woman, to treat women as sexual entertainment and second class citizens. And to rape a woman because she's drunk, wearing the "wrong" clothing or accepted a lift.

And they get terribly upset that "Britain ain't what it was in the good ol' days."

It's sufficient in scale that one poster on the Cologne threads stated many people would refuse to get behind a petition demanding protection of women's rights, only one demanding women's safety. She was vehemently and IMO correctly argued against, since "safety" could imply curtailment of movement. But I think she hit the nail on the head that many people would be unwilling to sign in support of rights.

These so-called British values may not be amputations or beheadings, but nor are they things I wish to enable in my country. (And obviously homophobia and racism can also feature on these people's list of meanings.)

So I get uneasy when anyone uses the very vague phrase "British values" as their recruiting cry. In case the banner they're trying to get me to march behind and fight for, turns out to be in direct contradiction to my values.

You are plain flat out wrong.

There is a rape culture in the UK. There's a rape culture in the US. They may not be as pervasive as in some countries, but to say otherwise is false.

You complain above that people keep mentioning Ched Evans. Well I can see why they keep repeating this to you, given your stance there is no rape culture here. The revealing thing about that case is NOT that one man was a rapist, but the huge support that gathered round him and the vilification of his victim - and with many of the supporters very happy to be publicly identified with their comments.

And as usual it was expressed as "Of course rape is a terrible crime and must be punished. But oh look, it turns out there wasn't actually a rape here and the woman was at fault." The punishments may differ from Islamic countries, but the rhetoric is the remarkably similar. See also the attempts in the US to excuse the sexual assault by Brock Persky.

A huge part of why the Rotherham abusers got away with it for so long is that they WEREN'T doing something completely taboo in the UK. They might have had their own motivations, but found an existing corner of British culture to fit into very nicely.

Compare to the case of Adam, the wee boy murdered and thrown in the Thames. No hesitation there in investigating and prosecuting despite muti murders being a "cultural practice". Because murdering children is flat out taboo in the UK. Sexually grooming and abusing adolescents isn't, for an uncomfortably large part of the population. (That's changing, but we're not there yet.)

Oh, and make the most of the Human Rights Act and European Convention on Human Rights while you've got them, because by the end of the week we may have a Prime Minister whose sworn intent is to ditch them.

Regarding Rotherham I absolutly think there was an element of hiding behind racial tensions. The MPs did not want to tackle it because they feared that the race card would be used and it would spoil election campaigns. The police were as much to blame though because they too treated these girl like dirt.

Just like the the high up government officials raping young care children. No one said anything because they didn't want it to effect their career.

Just like the tv presenters that were known to be pedophiles -no one said anything because they didn't want to lose there career.

All these children thrown away because other people cared more about themselves than innocent children. Violence toward children does not lean itself to one race.

back to the op - There is some thing being done about FGM. There is a huge drive in schools where there is a high risk of this. Also the goverment are taking or looking in to sharia law and Jewish orthodox law Beth Din. It's not just Muslims that have these laws tying women in chains. Beth Din makes its extremely hard to devorce a husband and in some Jewish sects women have been ordered not to drive! WTF! And yes this is in London, England.

This has really put me off TM saying that sharia law it has benefits. I'mWondering if it's to actually win votes.

Well said, PausingFlatly.

But I disagree strongly with you that any parts of Sharia law have any place in any jurisdiction where there is already a legal system. You cannot have two legal systems on an equal footing under the same constitution.

YY to this:
Don't tell yourselves that you are being 'insulting' and 'condescending' by working for their freedom. Women in Islamic cultures have not benefited from 3 waves of feminism as you have. They have no Suffragettes to admire and take inspiration from. Believe me, the types of oppression that women in Islamic societies face daily makes what the Suffragettes and the first wave of feminists in The West went through, seem like a picnic. In Islamic countries women are beaten and thrown in jail where they are tortured and gang raped daily for being "adulterous". They can be beheaded and have parts of their bodies amputated also, for the types of things that we here in Britain would consider completely within her rights to do. Every effort should be made to pressure the gov'ts of these Islamic countries to overturn unjust laws must be supported. These women need all the help they can get. It is not condescending, That's white guilt talking. Please be confident in your cultural values, it is the only humane thing to do [SuperSoft]

We can all be right here. There is probably no place on this planet where women have the rights they should have.

"Oh, and make the most of the Human Rights Act and European Convention on Human Rights while you've got them, because by the end of the week we may have a Prime Minister whose sworn intent is to ditch them."

I have heard many Leave voters, including on here, saying that getting rid of the HRA and the ECHR were one of the main reasons for their vote..........

math, some banks (including in the US) offer sharia-compliant mortgage products, which don't breach the sharia ban on charging interest. So people who wish to follow that part of sharia can still get a mortgage.

Much the same as halal food being available.

That's all I meant - not the application of a separate justice system.

I agree, some things can be accomodated. And it makes sense to do so in a world that is has less and less boundaries, people move etc etc.

But I agre with math. If there is already a legal system, then no other system should be used instead.
In particular, Sharia law (or whatever other system) shouldn't be used in Courts. How can it be OK to say that one individual should be following one law but another should follow another? And what happens if one person wants to be judged following one system but the other wants to follow another system?

But as the OP mentioned, it's interesting to see that there are very few peole involved in that discussion, as if it didn't matter. Whereas if it was Ched Evans, then you would have so many people involved.

RE Ched Evans my point was not that he is being discussed but that there is a far greater willingness to discuss his case and Brock Turner's, than there is to discuss the Muslim rape gangs of Calderdale, a MN thread that attracted about 3 posts.

No, sorry it's you are wrong, there is not a rape 'culture' here in the UK. That is to say - in this country rapists are punished, they are put in jail, where they are hated even more than they are outside. Even if they aren't jailed they face a criminal trial. Men who rape loose their jobs, are ostracised and in danger from other men. Men who even tell jokes about rape on social media loose their jobs. (I've seen that with my own eyes). Doubtless you'll say that isn't good enough and want to talk about how many men get away with it, and I wouldn't disagree, but to suggest that Britain has rape and female subjugation 'culturally' internalised. That Britain excuses rape and just delegates it to a civil matter, like they do in Islamic societies, is just plain idiotic, it doesn't.

Culture should not automatically be conflated with race. Culture is about how we treat each other, deal with problems and view things. The 'culture' that is - the moral, ethical expectations we have here in the West, specifically regarding rape and gender equality in general, are entirely better than in Islamic countries. Now I know they'll be people (on the political left usually) squirming to hear that, these are those who believe that all cultures are equal and of equal value. And to deny this amounts to racism. Well I do deny it - absolutely, because regarding the issues of rape, gender equality and free speech, some cultures just happen to do better than others – they just do, I'm sorry if that offends, but it's undeniable. Also if the cultures I'm critical of happen to be Non White one's? Then so be it. That is irrelevant in fact.

In Islamic culture: rape is a civil matter, women are beaten as a matter of course and little girls as young as 5 yo can have FGM done to them and if they survive, sold off to old perverts and the child's parents happy they've preformed the will of Allah. This is the Islamic 'cultural' code and it simply don't compare to ours, No amount of this ridiculous cultural-relativism nonsense will balance it out, not in the real world. I admit my experience of Islam is limited - though I have lived in both cultures. I do though believe that its completely idiotic and self-hating to believe you live in a society that is comparatively as oppressive, vile and misogynistic as the Islamic one. You so do not..

Ive said far too much now on this thread and I'm repeating, so I'll leave you with this anecdote - for what its worth?

When I was 13 yo living in London, I found a letter that my Mum in Malaysia had written to my Dad here. She told him that if he ever saw the 'dog' Rushdie in the street or wherever he was, he was to chase him down, cut his throat and bathe his hands in his blood, as the blasphemous animal deserved no less. My Mum was 'moderate' Muslim BTW... This is Islam.