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Brexit

Midlle Class PC white woman don't apply feminism to their sisters.

103 replies

bkgirl · 01/07/2016 19:03

Having a catholic background and knowing how the church was a positively evil force in the past, I really detest religion getting together with the law. It was accepted at the time as being the right thing to do despite being obviously totally abhorrant.

When I go to another country I respect it's laws. What troubles me is the acceptance of Sharia courts here.

It seems that white PC women have a dreadful habit of not supporting girls who from family or peer pressure do not somehow deserve the protection of the law. I have a real problem with Theresa May saying it benefits people greatly - frankly it only benefits MEN.

www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/03/sharia-law-and-middle-class-feminism

OP posts:
Atenco · 03/07/2016 00:07

I am curious about the apologists for FGM, I have never come across any of them, either in writing or in real life. However FGM is an abhorent cultural practice and has nothing to do with Islam, which I believe started out as the topic of conversaton.

bkgirl · 03/07/2016 02:42

Again. My point was if the pc brigade were as energetic about challenging FGM, lots of little girls would be better off.
I didn't say it was to do with islam.
I am saying the pc brigade only challenge what suits them.
They let down victims if they think it might effect cultural sensibilities.
I have also repeatedly said about the catholic church but yes you can expand that to any christian church or other org with extreme notions. Extreme religions of ALL sorts can represent a problem to a tolerant society.That is my point.
There are plenty of religions including Islam that do not have extreme members. Obviously I know that. My point was that if for example we let in one group over another - will it lead to problems? What is fair? What and where should we accept people from. For example global warming is a fact. Bangladesh is sinking and yes global migration means people will have to move. Other countries have similar problems. The world is on the move, we need to plan globally to accomodate so people aren't dying in the sea! The question is how do we do this and what challenges do we face with everyone who is already here. We want people to get along regardless of nationality, culture, religion. We want refugees and immigrants BUT how many in what period of time. What do we do to cater for their needs and the needs of those here.
Problem is when you make any point on this it gets twisted to suit the agenda of people who just don't like the idea that

being pC is not necessarily PC!

OP posts:
bkgirl · 03/07/2016 03:04

In the UK 65,000 girls under 13 could be at risk of FGM.
A case of FGM is reported in England on average every 109 minutes.
Why Has No-One Ever Been Convicted In Britain, Despite The Practice Being Illegal For 30 Years?
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/04/fgm-police-lead-mak-chishty-convictions-charges-evidence-illegal_n_5747672.html
Why is this not regarded as important, why aren't 20,000 people marching in Westminster about this?
FGM is mostly carried out on young girls between infancy and age 15.
I just can't think of anything more horrific.
Also if you want more info a great place to start is
www.dofeve.org/resources-and-links.html

OP posts:
Atenco · 03/07/2016 03:09

Is there any topic you haven't covered in your posts, OP? Now we are onto immigration. I'm lost. It would be easier if you stuck to one subject. And no, I for one do not have the solution for immigration unless it is one that includes the overthrow of the bankers.

bkgirl · 03/07/2016 03:27

So Atenco you can't offer any explanation for the above? Interesting response.
Yes, I make no apology for my concerns for all victims of sexual abuse, fgm and domestic abuse and yes I care passionately for those who have no voice for whatever reason.
The pc reason I find most hypocritical.

OP posts:
museumum · 03/07/2016 08:10

bkgirl - what do you want to achieve here? Are you looking for a blanket feminist condemnation of religion? Or just Islam? Ban the Hajib as a symbol of oppression?

You won't find anybody here who agrees with FGM or sharia law that's for sure.
But what is it specifically that us white western atheist feminists are supposed to be doing for/to our Muslim sisters?
And you'll excuse me if I'd prefer to hear that from them directly.
Of course if you are from a Muslim community and there's something you'd like support with then just come out and ask!

supersoftcuddlytoys · 03/07/2016 12:29

FGM is an abhorent cultural practice and has nothing to do with Islam Ok, but please, don't think for one second that anyone with a gram of common sense goes along with that! You're hanging on to the idea that there's no scripture that calls for this hideous practice to occur. But are you denying that Muslim societies who are obsessed with "female purity", or that raises people to be ridiculously sexual repressed. Sponsors fear of females and the sex act, a society that regards any woman who isn't a virgin, as a "prostitute", is not likely to encourage and approve of this?

One of the most widely read sharia law texts, Reliance of the Traveler: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, is proof that Islam endorses this atrocity against woman. It says (page 59): “Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce of the clitoris, not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert. Circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna [meaning decided by Mohammad], It is a mere courtesy to the husband.

SheikhYusuf al-Qaradawi, the Sunni Islamic world’s foremostshariascholar, head of the International Association of Muslim Scholarsand European Council forFatwaand Research, and chairman of the board of trustees of Islamic American University. The Muslim Brotherhood's spiritual and ideological leader. This person issued a fatwa asserting that "circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband" and that, "whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world.”

Would you like me to go on?

what do you want to achieve here?
I don't want to speak for the OP, but I take it that what she's trying to spark a discussion about the faulty thinking and double standards pervading the Western liberal reaction to Islam -- feminism in particular in regards to the human rights violations and misogyny embedded in Islamic Shariah law and it's growing influence here in the UK ? That's my take on it anyway.

Also here's something you can get involved with www.theahafoundation.org/. There are many other ways, take the time to look. www.shariawatch.org.uk/ is another. There are demo's and all kinds of actions in the offing.

It's no good saying 'its against the law' and leave it at that DetestableHerytike. The point is, FGM isn't being prosecuted here in Britain, for the same reasons the groups of like-minded, Muslim men were allowed to torture and gang-rape over a 1000 girls (some as young as 12 yo) for over a decade in Rotherham, all allowed to carry on totally unhindered, as the authorities were so concerned with being 'cultural sensitive'. There have been several successful prosecutions of FGM practitioners in France as opposed to here in Britain, where there have been next to none.

TheNewStatesman · 03/07/2016 12:39

"As for forced marriage and fgm, they are totally against Sharia law, but whatever."

Source, please (with regard to FGM, anyway)?

The Koran does not talk about FGM. It is, however, mentioned with approval in the Hadiths.

There is no part of Sharia law which rules against FGM.

Please don't just make things up.

mylovegoesdown · 03/07/2016 13:24

I have worked in MH with many communities where FGM is practised.

I don't agree with the 'PC brigade turning a blind eye' nonsense. The computerised MH records system I have worked with has a specific area for women who have been a victim of FGM or children who are at risk.

I have known children taken into local authority care because they are deemed at risk of FGM (not in the UK, but suspicion they would be sent abroad).

I've had GPs call me because a patient of mine has requested a long prescription of MH medication because they're going to their country of origin for a couple of months and GP wants my opinion if they're at risk of FGM (completely not understanding when FGM may occur and really not knowing the family either) but still, not turning a blind eye or being 'PC'.

I have cried with victims of FGM ( performed in their home countries) telling me about their experiences and how they see this as completely separate to their religion and something they would never inflict on their daughters.

I've spoken to men from cultures that perform FGM who are totally opposed to it and want me to speak to their wives who are coming under pressure from other women in their culture (usually back 'home ') to arrange it for their daughters.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen or isn't an issue but in my experience of actually working within communities, no one in UK health, social services or Police is turning a blind eye or being 'PC'.

And many of the people living in these communities who have traditionally engaged in abhorrent 'cultural' practices are against it and campaigning too.

supersoftcuddlytoys · 03/07/2016 14:02

That's fair enough mylove. I agree, of course no one in their right mind condones FGM regardless of their political views. That said, I do think it is the case that lefties, and white, western feminists are often slow to condemn misogyny and human rights violations when the perpetrators are not white men.

mylovegoesdown · 03/07/2016 14:46

I'm not sure that's true super (though thank you for being polite and lovely!) - in my experience, some feminists are far quicker to talk about misogyny or abuse when it's removed to another culture/religion - so of course their partner/family/friends would find FGM awful but their loved ones can still hold misogynistic views but they're not so 'extreme' so it's okay.

I feel really uncomfortable with these threads because they veer towards the 'these pre-medieval cultures/religions with their forced marriages, abuse, FGM and other barbaric stuff the backwards bastards' which is playing into the hands of the far right. Yes it happens but it disregards the strong, free -thinking men and women in these communities. And attributes commonly held misogynistic views to particular cultural/religious groups.

And I can only talk of my own experience which is of knowing a very small proportion of people from different cultures who held expectations of behaviour (religious or cultural) that I felt was abusive or oppressive. But many, many more people from those communities who I found to be strong believers in their faith but 'modern or progressive' in 'western' terms.

And I've worked with 'white British' communities who believe the way you dress, the way you act and the things you have done somehow explain/excuse misogyny or male on female violence.

Feminism is needed everywhere. I think it's needed in the Muslim community but everywhere else too. It's easier to 'other' a group and focus on that because then we don't need to question our attitudes or the attitudes of people we love.

venusinscorpio · 03/07/2016 16:17

You may be uncomfortable with these threads, but if you are indulging in cultural relativism when faced with obvious misogyny, you are playing into the hands of the far right yourself.

Atenco · 03/07/2016 17:06

"if you are indulging in cultural relativism when faced with obvious misogyny"

venusinscorpio where is the cultural relativism you are talking about in mylovegoesdown's post?

I find native UK society as reflected in mumsnet to be plenty of work for UK feminists to be getting on with, frankly, before they start to try to solve the rest of the world's problems.

venusinscorpio · 03/07/2016 17:07

Oh come off it Atenco, try reading it.

Just5minswithDacre · 04/07/2016 05:18

The computerised MH records system I have worked with has a specific area for women who have been a victim of FGM or children who are at risk.

How long has that been a field on the system?

EverythingWillBeFine · 04/07/2016 09:28

mylove I think one of the issues the OP is raising is: if we do care s d we are taking steps to protect women from fgm or from being hit,
Where are the people who did things? Has one of them ever being sentenced?(proper question on my side, I really dont know)

Eg with the GPs contacting you. Why are they doingg so? Is it from 'oh they are from xxx and following yyy religion therefore the child might be in danger' aka massive generalisation or is it because of what they know about the family (eg fgm has been performed in that family)
And then if a child has had fgm done on them, has parents being prosecuted because if it, the chins being put into care etc? Or do we consider that it's all cultural and well it wasn't done in the uk so nothing we can do about it?

The issue here is

  • if a child from a white family is being hit and abused (illegal) we expect said child to be protected and taken into care etc. If a child has had fgm performed on them, something we see as illegal too, would the same thing happen? Or ate people more likely to turn a Blind eye because it's in their culture, other than that, the child isn't being abused etc....
Same with domestic violence. Accepting the Sharia courts means we accept that some matters can be dealt in a different way (culture) but by accepting those we also say that we accept other ways of dealing with problems, eg by using physical punishment on an adult, what we would call physical abuse/hitting etc which is co suffered unlawful in this country.

The line in between can be thin and the boundaries between what is ok and what isn't seem to be very vague at best (or you might have one group pushing the boundaries to impose their 'ways' or whatever else is happening)

supersoftcuddlytoys · 04/07/2016 09:30

I find native UK society as reflected in mumsnet to be plenty of work for UK feminists to be getting on with, frankly, before they start to try to solve the rest of the world's problems

Oh Really, so us UK feminists can discuss how 'oppressed' we are here in the UK . But Muslim torture and rape gangs operating here in the UK also, preying on 12 year old girls, this is off limits to us is it? Shariah councils approving the practice of selling off your daughter to an old pervert, Imams referring to women that go out in public not covered from head to toe, as "uncovered meat". Telling men that if a woman is raped she asked for it. This is all off limits to us is it?

IcedCoffeeToGo · 04/07/2016 09:38

OP, your ignorance is striking

You conflate Catholicism with Islam, when about the only thing they have in common is the word religion that is applied to them.

You throw FGM and forced marriage into the bag, when neither of these are religious practices, and then to top it all off you have a dig at the "pc brigade" claiming that they agree with these things.

AFAIK, there is also some kind of Jewish court in operation in the UK.

Catholicism and Islam are more similar than they are different, but Christianity has at least had a reformation.

Just to note it was Muslims who exported FGM to Asia. Indonesia has suffered badly from Islamic attitudes to women. Now it may well not be an Islamic practice but yet it is justified, even by some Imams, in order for it to be carried out.

IcedCoffeeToGo · 04/07/2016 09:41

I think, as with many leftie issues (am a leftie), it gets into a mess where it wishes not to offend. It achieves nothing.

Is Islam, and most religion, backward thinking? socially retarding? Bit shit for women? YES.

supersoftcuddlytoys · 04/07/2016 11:56

In my experience, some feminists are far quicker to talk about misogyny or abuse when it's removed to another culture/religion
That certainly hasn't been my experience. The Guardian (among other progressive rags) said sweet FA during the 15 years that as many as 1400 girls as young as 12 yo, were systematically tortured and gang raped by Muslim men there. Despite it's high-profile/paid feminist writers, their pull out sections dedicated to Women / Society and all despite all of their Pious posturing, it was actually the right-wing 'Times' who actually sparked the inquiry into what was happening in Rotherham. Take MN, a thread was started recently about yet another of these Muslim rape gangs recently uncovered in Calderdale Yorkshire. I think it attracted 3 posts. Mention Ched Evans or Brock Turner's names though and you'll be inundated with outrage, bile, condemnation. Even people saying how much they hope they get raped themselves in jail!!! Or start a thread about a sexist remark made by a man at work today, or allege there are sexist lyrics in a decades old pop song and you'll get pages and pages of posts, letters written to MP's and petitions will be organised.

I feel really uncomfortable with these threads because they veer towards the 'these pre-medieval cultures/religions with their forced marriages, abuse, FGM and other barbaric stuff the backwards bastards' which is playing into the hands of the far right.

I know you care and are well meaning, that comes through very clearly in your posts. I would ask you though to consider the position of MP Ann Cryer, who said she had feared being called “racist” when, in 2002, she exposed a sex-abuse scandal involving Pakistani men in her constituency of Keighley, West Yorkshire. “The politically correct Left just saw it as racism”, she said. Also Simon Danczuk, Labour MP for Rochdale, also revealed that even now some of his colleagues disapproved of his efforts to uncover child abuse by Muslim gangs, because some were “obsessing about multiculturalism”. The responsibility for the sex abuse/robbery attacks carried out by organised gangs of Muslim men in Cologne last NYE has been put on woman's shoulders. The issues are far too important for us to worry about what labels might be thrown at us by the PC left. Or worry about whether we are playing into the hands of racists.

Yes it happens but it disregards the strong, free -thinking men and women in these communities.. Undoubtedly there people exist. However : in the 1930's the majority of German people were peaceful, decent, moderates. Completely disinclined to go to war, commit genocide and bring about fascism. But sadly It was Hitler's Nazi's that drove the agenda, the result – tens of millions dead and the Jewsih holocaust. So the peaceful majority were irrelevant. On 9/11 2001, there were 2.3 million Arab - Muslims in the US, it took just 19 of them, to slaughter almost 3,000 people that day. So for all this talk coming from peaceful, moderate Muslims who are in no way to blame. We have to remember the peace-loving Muslim majority have been made irrelevant by their silence.Like the Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Bosnians, etc, many have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. We owe it to ourselves to pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics, the rapists and misogynists who threaten us and our way of life. An analogy could be made about the English football hooligans in France a week or 2 ago. There were thousands of fans that were loud but essentially peaceful, out to enjoy themselves, the beer and the football. Sadly it was the minority, the moronic hooligans who will be remembered. Perhaps I missed it, but I would have liked to have seen more anger, condemnation and dissociation of the peaceful fans from this destructive, idiotic minority of thugs who caused so much damage and mayhem. Again the only group that set the agenda is the minority. The question is what can be done, not let's forget and stay silent about it, because they aren't all the same!

And I've worked with 'white British' communities who believe the way you dress, the way you act and the things you have done somehow explain/excuse misogyny or male on female violence Of course there are, but these views are not state and religiously sanctioned as they are in Islam. Also we have human rights laws to protect women from male on female violence.

Feminism is needed everywhere. I think it's needed in the Muslim community but everywhere else too. It's easier to 'other' a group and focus on that because then we don't need to question our attitudes or the attitudes of people we love You can't possibly be suggesting that women in liberal, secular, democratic Western societies, where gender equality is enshrined in law, are in the same level of need as women in Islamic counties? I'll remind you that in Islamic countries, women are forced to cover themselves up and therefore remove their identity from the public sphere or face beatings. as they might offend or 'confuse' men. In the Islamic world, rape is the woman's crime and punishable by men.
In Islamic societies women and men are both told by Imams that if she gets beaten to a pulp by a man she had it coming for not being obedient enough. Islamic attitudes to woman, gay people, freethinkers is appallingly oppressive and its delusional of you to suggest that we here in the West are just as in need of liberation from this.

Finally and I'm sorry for this painfully long post but I am deeply concerned about the influence of Sharia law here in the UK. I reject it and condemn it totally. Not because it's "other" or because I've internalised "Orientalalism" or whatever other codswallop term the so called "Progressives" might come out with. I reject Sharia law as it is barbaric. It is deeply and profoundly misogynistic, homophobic and repressive, for men as well as women and has no place in a liberal, secular society. If you share my concerns check - www.shariawatch.org.uk/

Atenco · 04/07/2016 13:17

supersoftcuddlytoys The thing is only in the case of ethnic minorities are criminals referred to by their religion or the colour of the skin. And just because someone is called Muhammed and is brown, that does not mean he is a practicing Muslim. The Elm Guest House perpetrators have never been referred to as Christians, have they?

So you have conflated certain criminal activity as being sanctioned by Sharia Law. Surely you understand that people are human and every community will have its fair share of criminals in it?

Then you take a selection of injustices from the wide variety of countries where the majority of people are Muslims and claim that they are representative of Sharia Law. I live in Mexico which is a secular society and the courts are extremely unjust, so does that mean that secularism is a danger?

Sharia Law is actually not deeply punitive, it is more to do with guiding everyday life. And there is no way any UK government is going allow Sharia Courts to try criminal cases and apply physical punishments.

EverythingWillBeFine · 04/07/2016 16:55

Atenco the iossue is that some individuals are using the Sharia law to explain away the beatings of their wife/children. And yes in some countries, it is quite possible that that would have been the punishment for whatever the issue was.

The problem is when in our societies, where beating your wife, fgm and so on is NOT legal we turn a blind eye to it 'because there is some culturla differences'.
The the lack of reaction (or less of) and aplication of the law that is an issue.
And yes in the case Rochdale, that was a reason why it went on for so long. There has been a similar trial in Bradford recently too.
It is a good question to ask ourselves. Are we, as feminists and liberal, also turning a blind eye to other things such as fgm on the ground that we want to accept everyone and everyone's culture, the same way that the Police brushed the rapes under the carpet 'because it's part of their culture'?

EverythingWillBeFine · 04/07/2016 16:57

Btw, I'm very well aware that that interpretation of the Sharia law will not be the same for all muslims and that for a lot (most?) of them, this is NOT what it is about.
The issue is the minority who does and in doing so is not following the laws of the country.

supersoftcuddlytoys · 04/07/2016 17:23

Exactly Everything..

just because someone is called Muhammed and is brown, that does not mean he is a practicing Muslim I'm well aware of that, that is why I referred someone up-thread to the campaigning work of Ayaan Heersi Ali and her foundation. She has lived a persecuted reality under Islam and gets shunned by feminists and lefties in general. Maryam Namazie and Maajid Nawaz are also leading critics of Islamic fundamentalism. All three live in fear for their lives BTW and receive regular death threats from 'offended' Muslims.

The Elm Guest House perpetrators have never been referred to as Christians, have they?
These perpetrators are at best, mentally ill, at worse - evil beyond belief. However they did not grow up in a society where religious doctrine encourages, indeed insists on the oppression of women. A culture where rape, beatings, and where women are treated as commodities is regarded a religious obligation. That is why the religious background of those paedophiles is not considered relevant. This is because Judeo-Christian civilisation has created the law codes, language and material prosperity that has greatly elevated women's status in the West. Please don't try to insult anybodies intelligence by saying that Islamic societies do anything other than take female inferiority for granted. Also dont try to deny that the cultural value system of the Muslim attackers I am referring to,( ie, the organised rape gangs that are operating with virtual impunity here in the UK), ins't radically different to the value system of the West. Even the paedophiles, rapists and murderers.

I live in Mexico which is a secular society and the courts are extremely unjust, so does that mean that secularism is a danger? No it means Mexico's legal system is probably corrupt. As unfamiliar as I am with the constitution of Mexico I seriously doubt wife beating, rape, stoning, amputations, and public executions of gay men are enshrined in it?

Sharia Law is actually not deeply punitive, it is more to do with guiding everyday life. And there is no way any UK government is going allow Sharia Courts to try criminal cases and apply physical punishments Really? Well perhaps you could inform the several private, Shariah council tribunals practising here in the UK of that? True they don't have the full weight of the UK legal system behind them, but they still have power, are still horribly misogynistic, homophobic and their values run contrary to the human rights laws have been fought and died for here in the UK? There are Islamic Shariah council judges operating here in the UK, that are telling men who are beating their wives to attend 'anger management courses' and get 'mentoring from community elders' and that's that - no referrals to legal action. According to Shariah, a Women must 'correct herself' if she wants to avoid being beaten to a pulp by her husband. They also judge marital rape thus: basically, a woman is not allowed to refuse sex. A woman's testimony is worth half of a man's in Shariah. So when a Muslim woman files for divorce, the cost for her is £250 for a man it is £100. The cost for a woman according to Shariah, is higher as a woman's word has to be corroborated. So not deeply punitive then? Perhaps not by your standards.

My fear is that this country will go the way of Germany, where now we have judges quoting Shariah law. The 'feminist' mayor of Cologne, telling women to behave 'appropriately' so as not to provoke the Muslim men that went out last NYE sexually attacking a mugging hundreds of German women. Courts in Germany recognising as valid the marriages of underage girls to elderly perverts, despite the legal age for marriage in Germany being 16. The number of child bride migrants living in Europe is unknown, but the number is thought to be in the hundreds. This is what Shariah law gives us. But this according to Atenco it isn't deeply punitive. I don't think I care to know what is does anyone else? A cartoon of Muhammed possibly?

BungoWomble · 05/07/2016 02:29

Atenco " thing is only in the case of ethnic minorities are criminals referred to by their religion or the colour of the skin."

I think you'll find that the early reports of the Jo Cox attack referred to Thomas Mair as a 'white' man. They also mentioned his racist comments, which while not a religion certainly represents a strongly held illogical belief. There is a point to allowing descriptions of people to be published. Apparently Sweden has insanely made the description of offenders illegal which is making it incredibly hard to locate them and prove identity. Investigations into religion / beliefs help to understand motives.

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