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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Exactly one week on - happy 'leavers' how are we all feeling?

1001 replies

Surferjet · 01/07/2016 07:38

Wow what a week Grin
I'm still walking on air & soooooo happy we're leaving, just want A50 triggered ASAP!

OP posts:
MangoMoon · 02/07/2016 20:46

Oh, I know!
Just playing devil's advocate Wink

QueenOfNowt · 02/07/2016 20:54

The problem I had with the official Leave campaign was how it let itself be diverted into conjecturing about what trading arrangements Britain would substitute for its EU Single Market membership. Would it be something like the current Norwegian, or Swiss, or Canadian, or Turkish arrangements? There are two flaws with going down this path of speculation.

First, the trading deal Britain establishes with the EU27 is one of those future policy actions that cannot be predetermined. It will derive from what is negotiated with the EU, which will represent a compromise that will appear to serve best the different national economic interests involved. Moreover, the particular trading relationship established with the 27 other EU countries is not the decisive factor for Britain’s economic future. Nor is there some unique perfect alternative to existing Single Market arrangements that would bring about the ‘best’ economic outcome. Each possible British-EU trade arrangement established would not bring about a fixed economic future. Trading deals are only one small component of how the economic future could evolve.

When organisations claim that leaving the Single Market will mean so many jobs are lost, that manufacturing will experience such-and-such a contraction, and that wages will fall by so much, what is ignored is that all these things are driven not by trade access but by productivity. Most countries in the world are not in the EU Single Market. Their economies do well or badly not because of, or despite being outside of, the Single Market, but because of the state of their own fundamentals of investment and productivity, the impact on them of world economic developments, and the national economic policies that they pursue.
Trading arrangements do not ordain Britain’s or any country’s levels of jobs and wages. These are determined by the amount and quality of investment taking place embodying innovative processes, and the resulting level of productivity. Foreign trade is one of the ways nations can realise their economic possibilities, but it doesn’t magic them up in the first place. Models like the UK Treasury one, which claims that it does, falsely turn the genuine correlations existing between trade and growth into trade being a causal driver of growth.

QueenOfNowt · 02/07/2016 21:00

Elements, worse than 'using' your FIL you have outright belittled and shamed his opinions on a public forum. And then tried to besmirch a poster's character in some unhinged manner of back-pedalling. I fear you are unravelling, not unlike your Remain cohorts on this thread.

smallfox1980 · 02/07/2016 21:01

I disagree queen. The trading deal that we have with the EU encourages investment and all of the things you listed, not having the access to the single market deters investors and directs investment elsewhere, lowering our long term capacity and therefore our productivity.

Also one of our major exports is financial services, the ability to deliver these exports in an enviroment where access to the single market for services was restricited would be thoroughly impaired. The resulting multiplier of the loss of this trade would further impact LRAS, and therefore again effect productivity.

Also in effect, not having the trade deals with the EU and its subsequent 50 other countries with trade deals, effects our productivity as it a lower level of demand for exports would result in a large output gap, and thus prodcutivity.

The treasury model was not incorrect in its 3 separate scenario predictions at all.

NoMudNoLotus · 02/07/2016 21:09

OP I'm a leaver and I'm happy too Smile

BBC are doing a fine job at whipping up a frenzy though aren't they Hmm

QueenOfNowt · 02/07/2016 21:13

...and shall we address those backward Brexiters who bloody well refused to believe that demi-god of economics, Mr Osborne? The man who must be heeded - nay worshipped - as the utterly impartial truth-sayer he is?

The Treasury model assumed very positive outcomes for Remain (e.g. completion of the Single Market for services, no additional regulatory burden) and very pessimistic outcomes for Leave (e.g. no free trade deals, no repeal of regulation). That is pure deception. Worse, Osborne then presented what are simply forecasts as "fact". That was outright fabrication. He then deceitfully made no attempt to explain that the £4,300 was not a loss as such, but an amount that we wouldn't gain.

And the £4,300 was GDP per household, when GDP is not the same as income per household (which is much lower than GDP). And of course he divided GDP by the current number of households, whereas the analysis showed an increase in households (partly responsible for the growth in GDP).

All in all, the £4,300 claim is perhaps the worst deceit I have ever seen.

Surferjet · 02/07/2016 21:16

Hi NoMudNoLotus Smile

Yes, the media is extremely biased towards remain ( no surprise there really ) I understand the BBC have had lots of complaints.

OP posts:
smallfox1980 · 02/07/2016 21:16

Worse than the £350 million? I think not. Or than the £600 million costs of EU regulation, a quarter of which is Basel and Paris agreements which are internationally imposed and not EU? I

You also appear not to realise that there were 3 different scenarios for a leave vote run, EEA, Canada style deal and WTO style deal.

TheElementsSong · 02/07/2016 21:18

you have outright belittled and shamed his opinions

How nice of you Queen to bestow your opinion on me. Kindly show, with workings, how I have outright belittled and shamed. Go on. Go on.

Also kindly show how I besmirched, unprovoked another poster. Please. And also please report me. In fact, I shall report myself if you do not do so.

And calling me unhinged for being upset that I felt my family were being attacked. Again, how nice of you, and also morally superior.

smallfox1980 · 02/07/2016 21:21

Queenofnowt:

You are copying and pasting from this source:

www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/no-remain-has-not-won-the-economic-argument/18431#.V3gh-WgrK00

Fucking hysterical that is.

chocolateworshipper · 02/07/2016 21:28

beenthere

The Leave campaign DID have a plan - it was leaked and I can give you the link: thebrexitplan.com

If you click on it, it will all make sense to you

MarkRuffaloCrumble · 02/07/2016 21:31

Grin that link!

TheElementsSong · 02/07/2016 21:33

chocolate That's an excellent link Grin!

QueenOfNowt · 02/07/2016 21:41

Yes I did copy and paste from that article; would you have read a link to it?

chocolateworshipper · 02/07/2016 21:41

I'm a teacher, so I knew we could trust Gove ...

smallfox1980 · 02/07/2016 21:46

Maybe, but passing off professionally written opinions from an online journal as your own is very disingenuous.

TheElementsSong · 02/07/2016 21:56

I've reported my own "unhinged" post from 16:42 BTW.

QueenOfNowt · 02/07/2016 21:57

Not at all. When you consider everything you have opined on here has been collated from what you have read..

smallfox1980 · 02/07/2016 22:00

No I make my opinions from a range of sources.

You have copied and pasted an economic tract in order to put across a certain perspective but are unable to defend the points made in it.

For example the point about productivity and trade is probably not correct, can you defend that position?

MangoMoon · 02/07/2016 22:16

Why does she need to defend it?

If it's not quite correct, or subjective then point it out - explain why you think it's not entirely correct.

I read lots of things and form opinions but I don't have intricate knowledge of heaps of stuff - that's where I rely on other people who do know about it to point out inaccuracies or different interpretations.

Constant demands for people to 'defend' things are often counterproductive, quite frankly.

smallfox1980 · 02/07/2016 22:30

No, this is supposed to be a discussion board, not, copy and paste other people's writing and walk away board.

Maybe the term defend wasn't the right one, it should be discuss further.

MangoMoon · 02/07/2016 22:44

Fair point.

BeenThereDoneThatForgotten · 02/07/2016 23:04

If you post something to back up your argument, surely you should be able to back it up?

TheElementsSong · 02/07/2016 23:12

Agree smallfox, it's not a discussion to swoop in, post a bunch of stuff and then swoop out again refusing to address points when asked.

QueenOfNowt · 02/07/2016 23:26

What do you mean 'probably not correct'? The UK will 'probably' be able to strike trade agreements with the US and Asian markets that have a greater focus on financial services. Again - trade is not a causal factor of growth, investment is.

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