Exactly one week on - happy 'leavers' how are we all feeling?

[Surferjet]

Wow what a week
I'm still walking on air & soooooo happy we're leaving, just want A50 triggered ASAP!

Remainers are not really pro-EU at all; rather, they’re anti-democracy, often in the most snobbishly PC of terms

I'm very sorry you think that. Would it be fair to conclude that you (personally) would be opposed to these dickheaded, sanctimonious ivory-towered wankers being involved in shaping the future of the UK from here on?

Well, morning all. Caught up on this thread and it seems to me the reason a great deal of people have voted Leave comes down to immigration and the effects they perceive immigration to have had on society. So I wonder what will happen if we proceed with leaving the EU but keep freedom of movement? Or if non-EU migration increases and overall levels of immigration stay the same?

As for Queen's reasons, I disagree completely. I didn't vote to remain out of any anti-democracy sentiment; I want the world to be a fairer and more equal place with better distribution of wealth. I am devastated by the vote to Leave because I see the gap between rich and poor widening as a result of this vote to Leave and I see a Tory austerity-driven government unencumbered by protective EU legislation as a victory of the establishment over the people and an invitation for further misery and ruin for the dispossessed and disadvantaged. I don't think any control has been handed to any of us. But that is a difference of opinion which will never be resolved on here and I'm going to get on with my Saturday and try to stay off here because while it has been a really interesting, I think it will be repetitive rather than productive now.

I think Leave have voted against everyone's interests. I think they have voted for less equal and more difficult times ahead. I think proceeding with Brexit will cause a great deal of misery and a narrower, harsher future for everyone and I think it will hit the poorest the hardest. My job isn't under threat as a result of this, nor is my husband's, nor is our home or our sense of belonging in this country so I'm not particularly afraid for my own selfish interests. I am not planning any more maternity leaves so my worries about that protection isn't founded by my personal concerns either. I'm worried about what this will do to society as a whole. I'm worried about the backlash when Leave don't get what they thought they were voting for and things get worse rather than better.

So I hope that either I'm wrong and Leave will somehow, miraculously make for this fairer, better and more prosperous society (though I can't see how this will happen) or I hope that Article 50 is never invoked and the Tories are ousted for creating this whole mess in the first place (also not sure how this will happen). Either way, the anger and the rifts exposed and exacerbated by all of this will fester for a long time and that is a depressing prospect. So, going back to the OP, I don't see a reason for either side to be 'walking on air' about this and I predict a fairly brutal return to Earth as the consequences continue to kick in.

Hope you all have a nice weekend and that all of this doesn't turn out as shit as it seems!

Queen I'm curious to know how you know that the 'politic of fear' was just that, putting fear into people just to make people vote Remain but wo any basis?

We are ONLY a week after the vote and have NOT signed the Article 50 yet. Did you think that all the thing experts have been warning us about would happen straightaway?
It will take years to know what sort of effect Brexit will have on the Uk, both on a social pov sand on an economical pov.
Dismissing it like this is just naive

Re increase of racist comments/attacks. again it's very early on. Maybe it's just a very small spike, maybe it's a clear trend (you certainly don't see trend in a week).
I do know, like a lot of other people, that I and my dcs suddenly have found ourselves dealing with comments such as 'Go back home' when it had NEVER happened before to any of us. Maybe it's just a coincidence. Maybe it's there to stay. It IS very unsettling and saying it doesn't exist is just as bad than saying it's the biggest problem ever (even though it might prove to be, time will tell)

Sure, it will take years to see the true effects.

But what, precisely, is going to happen to reach those positive effects?

I would suggest reading these links to really get to grips with the depths of feeling of the disenfranchised & ignored.

Mango, I don't for one second deny that a large section of the population feel incredibly disenfranchised and ignored. What angers me is this resentment and frustration has been cynically chanelled into becoming focused on one single issue the EU and that an awful lot of people have been wound up into thinking that this is their chance to speak, this will change everything, THIS will break down divides.

How long before disenchantment sets in? I don't understand how you can read QueenofNowt's posts and think: yes, if that's why you voted Brexit, you're on the right track and you're not going to be very, very disappointed. You're sick of feeling let down, ignored, disrespected for being overweight and liking football and not having a degree or a professional job or eating the right diet or any other number of class indicators Queen mentioned -- and this is your chance to be heard.

But none of that's on the ballot. None of it can be fixed by a referendum: we need years and years of tax and education reform and community investment to rebalance the huge disparities of personal finance, employment opportunities, the sense of being listened to and valued that make so many people angry.

When the dust settles after this result, there are going to be exactly the same social and financial inequalities, and the people who thought this was one in the eye for elites are going to be the first to suffer the consequences of any recession: not in an 'oh dear, I didn't get a huge bonus this year' way, but in basic standards of living: food and petrol prices, employment opportunities, infrastructure funding, everything.

And the worst thing is, far from this being a people's revolution, I have the feeling there'll be a backlash, especially if the Tories remain in charge (who have always been very keen to stoke up the idea of 'deserving' vs 'undeserving' poor). There are nasty little signs of it already: people scoffing when areas such as Cornwall or Wales ask for reassurance that their EU funding will be replaced well, tough shit: you shouldn't have voted for Brexit and vicious comments about seeing how you feel when wages and benefits get cut. The same caste of 'elites' are in power... and now they don't even have to pretend to worry about the welfare of other demographics in a recession, because, hey, you voted for it.

And the left-wing 'elites' people in academia and other professions who fully support the welfare state are, in general, incredibly frustrated with the Brexit rhetoric: they've been mocked and ignored and cast as doom-mongers, clever clogs, spouters of 'facts' that nobody wants to hear because we're making Britain great again. It's a divisive technique similar to that of the American right-wing, where the Republican party (itself immensely wealthy and inextricably linked with huge corporations and business interests) encourages the idea that its voters are good plain honest folk versus a bunch of lefty college types who never did a day's work in their lives and hate America.

So people who voted to stick it to the elites are going to enjoy a brief period of feeling enfranchised and powerful, and then they're going to get screwed over yet again, and the elites no longer have to pretend to care. The country is more divided than ever, and in the event of a recession the field is wide open for a rights-grab from workers and reduced benefits, not to mention unmitigated bitterness and scapegoating on both sides. Viva la revolucion.

I am going to leave the thread, honestly, but just have to say that Rum is absolutely, completely right. I've just read Deborah Orr's article in the Guardian this morning which looks at this idea of Leave attacking the elite and both Orr and Rum articulate exactly what the problem is with this delusion.

Well said Rum!

Excellent post rum.

I know a few people that voted leave, and they are still very happy with the result. They are small business owners who are sick of the "red tape" coming from Brussels.

They are already lobbying parliament to remove certain regulations, they knew exactly what the consequences were and worked towards it.

Mostly it's to reduce labour laws, like the pesky working time directive which means you can limit the number of hours you want to work to 35 per week. They were deeply unhappy when we had to start paying holiday pay including a portion of overtime if this was worked regularly (only came in this year so probably first to go). The fact that we have to consider applications for flexible working. I only hope they don't start on paternity and maternity leave.

Ultimately this is at a time when we have a conservative government. I think the EU has huge problems, but they reined in the worst excesses of the right.

I'm naturally left leaning, this is worrying me.

Wow Rum - spot on

Apparently approximately 8% of people who voted Leave are now regretting it, only one week on. Even if that's not totally accurate, it's very significant.

ARumWithAView

Give it up, I'm not convinced by anything remainers have to say.
& I agree with previous poster, many remainers aren't pro-EU but anti democracy. They just can't take the fact that they've lost. You want to be governed by some superstate who pulls all your strings, you're terrified of being set free because what are you being freed into? you have no sense of identity. freedom scares you -,you need rules & control.

And carry on with your delusion that 17 million people are uneducated racists - you're just making yourselves look stupid quite honestly.
And as for us now being ruled by the Tories, so what? Labour couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery atm and that also scares you. The left are dying and no one cares.

Thanks! In view of future posters who'll say I'm an elitist snob reinforcing class stereotypes and betraying my deepseated contempt for 'the people', I just want to point out that my paragraph about weight and football is a direct paraphrase of (and response to) QueenofNowt's post on page 23, about voting against an establishment which for too long has treated us and our way of life with contempt, which has sneered at us for being too fat, unhealthy, bad at parenting, overly obsessed with flags and football.

I've just realised that we're several pages past that and, without context, it sounds like I've called Brexiters fat... I'm sure that'll help heal divisions.

Give it up, I'm not convinced by anything remainers have to say

That's impressive. This was a very complex decision with lots of things to consider. But you've made your decision and are happy with it, prepared to look for anything to help validate it and to dismiss any concerns people have.

Have you heard of cognitive dissonance and decision making? When people make a decision that they may have had a conflict about, they go out of their way to justify it in spite of any evidence that may go against the decision they made.

Just saying.

Oh: okay. We're back to 'freeeeedom', you're just a sore loser, and bizarre claims that I think 17 million people are uneducated racists -- yes, that's exactly what I said!

If you're happy with Tory rule, then good for you. They've shown such consideration for employment rights and benefit recipients in the past: let's all look forward to a new unchecked era of mutual prosperity and respect.

Seriously, no one is listening anymore. It's over.

It's over

I suspect it's only just begun. These are the opening acts of a long, drawn out play.

I am fucking petrified of a Tory Govt and no opposition. So I bloody well do care that the Labour Party are imploding.

God help us all.

Rum is completely right.

And nobody is calling you a racist surfer and nor are my friends and family who voted Leave racist. They vote Leave for the reasons Rum has said...feeling disenchanted and forgotten. Their vote will change nothing,

I mean the trying to persuade the other side.
We've all made up our minds one way or the other & neither is going to budge.
There's only so many 'I'm right you're wrong' threads anyone can take.

No, for the leavers it really is over.

Even if everything the experts predicted in the run up to the referendum comes true they will claim it was always going to happen and nothing to do with brexit.

"La la la la la not listening to you."

Rum, I've put on 3lbs this week due to post-Brexit Blues cake munching. Brexit is definitely making me fat.

OP, I thought this thread had got somewhere much more thoughtful and reflective than any of the referendum threads have been but you've gone back to 'it's over, we won' which is a ridiculous stance. Article 50 isn't invoked and that triggers two years of negotiations so we are a long, long way from over. Now, I really need to leave this alone!

We've all made up our minds one way or the other & neither is going to budge

Don't you think it's helpful to listen to other arguments and their concerns if we are asked to make a decision on an election?

Understanding other people's POV is a good thing, isn't it? You are not being asked to change your mind.

sorenofthejnaii
Yes it is good to hear others PoV, that's why we use MN after all - but it gets to a stage where it just goes around in circles.

But this one wasn't going round in circles until you brought it back to "you think all leavers are racists" again.....

There's an economic phenomenon that is illustrated by what is known as "The Ultimatum Game".

In this game, one person is given a sum of money, £100, say. They have to offer some to another person. If the second person is happy with the offer, they accept it, and both get to keep their money. If they reject it, neither gets to keep their money.

Now, you would think that the second person would always accept the offer given, as it a clear choice between something and nothing. But, in fact, if the offer is seemed to be too low, the second person will often reject the offer, even though they will be worse off, in effect, to punish the first person, so that they don't get to keep the money, either.

They work against their better interests, in order to also work against the other person's better interests, in a kind of reverse altruism.

This seems to me to be a good explanation of why the leave vote won. Many (not all, but enough to swing it) voted to ensure that others, whether they be immigrants, rich bankers, old Etonians in government, the leftist elite, or whoever else were going to be worse off, even though they themselves would also be losers in the deal.

*deemed