Exactly one week on - happy 'leavers' how are we all feeling?

[Surferjet]

Wow what a week
I'm still walking on air & soooooo happy we're leaving, just want A50 triggered ASAP!

I'm only asking why because I want to know, Queen. I certainly don't hate the uneducated. My views on the EU are based on evidence. Do you claim that there is some sort of moral superiority in not bothering about evidence but simply holding to vague convictions?

Maybe you can answer the question for me, Queen. Are you not worried about the fact that leaving the EU is already making us poorer? Won't it bother you when you have to pay higher taxes, the cost of living goes up and the NHS goes down the pan? Don't you feel the slightest degree of concern for people who are losing their jobs? Does it not bother you that innocent people are being hounded and told to "go home" directly as a result of this referendum?

So far only one Remain poster has bothered to answer this question:

Why do you think people voted to Leave?

Queen I agree

What do you say I'm mistaken about, OP? The existence of the ECHR? The fact that we (under Churchill) were highly instrumental in drafting it and were amongst the first to sign? That we did so decades before we joined the EU? That we will still be bound to it even if we leave the EU? That the Human Rights Act doesn't give us a fast track way of accessing and enforcing our rights under the convention? That the court dealing with that isn't the European Court of Human Rights? That that court isn't independent of the EU? Or what?

Judy, did you read the 3 links I posted earlier?
This answers all of your questions, apart from the following:

Don't you feel the slightest degree of concern for people who are losing their jobs? Does it not bother you that innocent people are being hounded and told to "go home" directly as a result of this referendum?

For me, yes - of course I am bothered and concerned about those 2 things.

Speaking as (I assume) the one person you are referring to, Mango, why does any Remain voter have to tell you why people voted Leave?

I did not vote to leave because I thought it would be good for me or people like me or even for the country as a whole.

I voted to leave because I could not, in all conscience, vote to remain in a club in which Spain, Italy and Greece have ended up in the position they are in.

I voted leave because I am deeply uncomfortable about being part of a trade cartel of rich, predominantly white northerners. I hope that us leaving may, in some way, rebalance wealth distribution globally, with the global south having better opportunities to trade with us.

I voted leave because I could not condone free movement of people across the EU when that leaves the least well educated, least mobile people in the UK left on the rubbish heap. There's an inexhaustible supply of cheap willing labour from elsewhere in the EU, but that's at the expense of the most vulnerable people in our own society, and it seems utterly immoral to proceed that way.

Am I happy? Not really. Do I think things will get better? No idea. But I have expressed my disgust at these inequalities that ARE a result of the EUs current make up and priorities, and maybe there will be some small steps towards a world that is a little less unequal.

I hope we leave the single market. I know it's great for our economy, but I'm not persuaded that it's great for the rest of the world, especially the global south.

The European Court of Human Rights is NOTHING to do with the EU and will continue to make decisions about the UK after Brexit.

The UK cannot avoid the ECHR; even Russia belongs - it's just that few of Putin's surviving victims dare take Russia to the European Court and even if they did, the judges probably don't fancy polonium sushi, so won't take the case.

I think there are lots of reasons people voted leave.
Some did it because they thought it was a protest vote against the hideous impact of the conservative government. Some did it because they are xenophobic or racist.
Some did it because they believed the rhetoric about mega bucks that would come to the NHS.
Some did it because they are ideologically opposed to the idea of countries working together. Some because they wanted to see what would happen. Some because they felt marginalised and left out and wanted to show their power. I could keep going for hours.....

Not 'why did they vote leave' but 'why do you think they voted to leave'.

Because maybe with tangible ideas or points it will be easier to give you the answers you seek.

The reasons are different for each person, as I said before there is no neatly packaged, catch all answer.

My post was about why I think people voted leave. I don't understand ypur distinction.

Some did it because they thought it was a protest vote against the hideous impact of the conservative government.

Not just the conservative govt.
This sentiment is borne from decades of disenfranchisement over successive govts.

Some did it because they are xenophobic or racist.

Yes. But this is a tiny fraction of the 17+ million.

Some did it because they believed the rhetoric about mega bucks that would come to the NHS.

Perhaps, but as this was debunked over all media this would have been a tiny fraction of the 17+ million.

Some did it because they are ideologically opposed to the idea of countries working together.

I don't understand this one.
Please could you explain further?

Some because they wanted to see what would happen.

Again, if so then a very tiny amount of 17+ million people.

Some because they felt marginalised and left out and wanted to show their power.

A lot of people voted Leave for this reason, and I think it had the desired effect.

I could keep going for hours.....

Ok...

Sorry Bertrand, I cross posted with you - I was responding to Judy asking me that question.
Apologies, and thank you for replying

Looking back, I suspect I'm not the "one person' you're referring to after all, Mango, which is a shame as I did in fact set out possible reasons.

Yes, I've looked at those links, which suggest that the reasons behind voting leave were to do with generalised discontent and a wish to "punish" the privileged. Ironically the PERC one concludes that the EU was working very well indeed for the UK, whilst the Atlantic one points out that in punishing others Leave voters are mostly punishing themselves. The BBC one suggests that votes in Boston were fairly and squarely based on immigration whilst noting that immigration has made the town much more prosperous. I know all of that is a very broad-brush summary, but there is a common theme of Leave voters having voted against their own interests or as a protest against evils that essentially arise from Conservatism rather than the EU. So none of it really helps me in identifying a reason why Leave voters now feel so optimistic.

Mango Surfer well done you for trying, Judy I'm not sure you're listening, that by no means is derogatory its just that each of us is so passionate about our side sometimes I think we no longer listen we just want to get our point across. One positive out of this is we are all talking rather than living the mundane, Remainers you may get a second referendum the equilibrium may be returned but at least its reignited an interest in our forgotten Britain. Bring on a Peoples Taskforce. And I'm off to bed, why is my phone so slow it's pages after everyone else.

That's sort of the point though Judy - the working class vote was (very broad brush) akin to self harm.

It had literally got so shitty over such a long period of time (decades) that they didn't care about how 'the EU is good' because it wasn't tangible to them.

Another poster on another thread gave a good analogy:

People don't care about how big the pie is, if they're only getting a tiny portion of it whilst the elite are eating the rest.
They don't mind the prospect of a smaller pie if it's not going to be shared so disproportionately.
And if their slice stays tiny, then they've list nothing.

Ommward I couldn't agree more with your highly articulate post. Extremley well put. I disagree with you on two things - I am happy, and I do think things will be better. I'm so pleased you expressed exactly what I'm feeling about the inequality that people are suffering from so badly.

Better off people generally are EU beneficiaries, the poorer people suffer the disbenefits.

I'm going to have to go too as its late, sorry if there is a post I miss.

Good night all

Before I go, Ommm's reasons were my reasons too - but like TruthCouldOut, I am happy, and hopeful for the future.

Mango at least tonight you won't have a sleep in camels entrails maybe next week

Let us dwell for a moment on the failure of the establishment. It pumped an extraordinary amount of energy, money, time and intellectual resources into the campaign to keep Britain in the EU. It deployed the politics of fear, issuing dire warnings about a post-Brexit recession and a possible surge in racism and violence. It sent experts to explain to our tiny minds all the things that would happen if we made the wrong choice. It rallied big business, corporates, its global partners and allies, all of whom insisted that it is in Britain’s interests, and Europe’s interests, for the EU to stay intact. And yet it didn’t work. Even in the face of these fearful overtures from the powerful, a majority of people rejected the EU. The establishment can no longer connect with significant sections of society. The chasm between the elite and the people just went from huge to possibly unbridgeable. And my vote counted towards it. That's why I voted Leave - because wankers like the BBC have the nerve to extol the 'prosperity' of Boston. Go and live there then, you sanctimonious, ivory tower-dwelling dicks.

Remainers are not really pro-EU at all; rather, they’re anti-democracy, often in the most snobbishly PC of terms. And that, as some of us have been arguing all along, is what the EU referendum was really all about: whether you are for or against people potentially having just that little bit more control over their lives.

Bravo, should of gone to bed but can't leave it.

So, changing to an even more rightwing Tory government that will increase the gap between rich and poor - that's given you back more control ?

The greatest victory is to Murdoch, to other billionaire oligarchs and to those ultra rightwing businessmen who want freedom to sweep away the remains of the welfare state and workers rights.
They are as elite as it gets and they are laughing.
So you voted probably to get poorer and have even worse working & living conditions, even more cuts to services & benefits.
Labour are having another civil war and can't ride to the rescue.

Brexit doesn't hurt the elite in the least, because they are completely mobile and easily move their businesses to other countries if the UK is inconvenient.
Their assets are all around the world and governments can't touch them.
They go, the UK loses their tax and the jobs they provide.

The professional classes - scientist, doctors, lawyers - are certainly not elite, but can be mobile.
I'm a scientist and I'm in Germany at the moment - decided last week to emigrate. I've worked here some years and I've a little home here and in the UK, so not much upheaval. Just spoke to my usual employer and have to fill in a few forms to get a residence permit.
So you haven't hurt many of the professional classes either, if they are prepared to emigrate, to the EU, USA etc
Bit of a brain drain and tax drain from us too, though.

You may have hurt the middle classes with a bit more than you, but not rich, who don't have skills in demand abroad. They are certainly not the elite.

The spike in racism was very hurtful to read (I'm mixed BME). I'm fairly well shielded from it where I live and work, but I didn't wait to experience it, just decided on a better life outside England.
I suffered years of racial abuse as a child in 1960s England, so Leavers minimising what's happening in 2016 helped me decide to ditch England for ever.
Increased racism will hurt some BME citizens who are not comfortably off and can't go anywhere else. So yes, those affected are probably feeling miserable now.

The elite just divided up their wealth & power slightly differently among them, that's all.
None of it's coming your way or mine.

Why do you have to fill in forms and get a residence permit?