Anyone feeling the country is dividing?

[Maz2444466]

I voted to Leave because I think the EU is anti-democratic and bureaucratic. I have absolutely no problem with immigration. I do believe though that integration is key for community cohesion.

I live in London and ALL my friends voted to remain. My best friend voted to Remain, I told her I voted to Remain as she thinks everyone who voted to Leave is racist and evil.

I feel like this referendum has created divides that were never there.

Is this just human nature? For people to follow the pack? I looked for a Facebook Leavers group tonight and everyone in it said how they love Nigel Farage. I don't.

I feel I can't relate to either side. I know this is a first world problem and I probably need to just get over myself but does anyone else feel like this?

I wish the government had made this decision for us!

There is no doubt China will rise soon. By 2030, they are meant to have produced more graduates than the entire workforce of the US. Which means... forget blue collar jobs (that will be old news), white collar jobs will be in danger then, too. When that day comes, I would prefer myself and my kids to be part of a big union that can actually hold its own and protect the rights of its citizens across several countries.

So unskilled & a proportion of blue collar roles have been acceptable collateral damage, but it's important to protect white collar jobs?!

MangoMoon

No - that's not what I meant. In the article I read (which was more about US politics than the UK), it just said that you have to look ahead. The US politicians were concentrating so much on the blue collar jobs that have been lost, that they can't see the danger ahead which is due to be worse than the loss of blue collar jobs. With enough education, you can get people with blue collar backgrounds do white collar jobs, but if those jobs are gone, too, what do you do?

Ah, ok - apologies.

I am uncomfortable with the whole idea of being in a big block of countries personally, although I can see what you mean about a union of countries being able to 'hold their own' together.

I liked the notion of countries being loosely linked and having solidarity through trade etc, but it was the ever closer political union that bothered me.
It just feels a bit empire-istic (not an actual word!).
I also was not on board with complete free movement of people with no caps or conditions at all.

*I am uncomfortable with the whole idea of being in a big block of countries personally, although I can see what you mean about a union of countries being able to 'hold their own' together.

I liked the notion of countries being loosely linked and having solidarity through trade etc, but it was the ever closer political union that bothered me.*

This also bothered me, I felt we could be linked without being in a bloc, I know some Remainers have described this as isolationist, but I never saw it like that because I still thought we would have strong ties as per Daniel Hannan's EU exit proposal. In fact, I thought it would increase our opportunity for Commonweath trade and make us more of a global player...

Actually, I just wanted to say I have been reading other threads on here and think on the whole both Leavers and Remainers are coming across as moderate so I take that back about Leavers on Mumsnet not being as moderate, I would avoid some of the Leavers Facebook groups though..just want to thank you all for fair and rounded comments and for fellow Leavers who have made me realise there are many with the same views and ideology as myself.

Maz2 my Iranian colleague at work (first generation immigrant) voted Leave as well.

You are not alone.

If your friend was really Left wing she would have voted Leave. There was a very strong far left case for leaving the EU which I thought was very well presented.

It was an alliance of communists, SWP, trade unions (like the RMT), social labour, Greens and LGBT etc.

I agree Maz that overall people on MN are reasonable, debate is heated and people get irritated with each other, but the important thing is that although we may not agree, at least we are talking (albeit often at cross-purposes) to each other.

It is very sad though that not all posters are so conciliatory (to put it mildly) and my great fear is that this rift has so embedded itself in some hearts, that it may never properly heal. I wrote on some other thread maybe yesterday that for me personally, I've had my faith in the essential decency of people shaken .

I've had my faith in the essential decency of people shaken

I hope not elements, I hope it's just a passing thing.

People are, mostly, decent, kind & honest - there's always a few utter twats but that's life.

I think most of us have the same ideological endgame, we just believe in very different routes to achieve it.

I guarantee that in six months time if you did a straw poll, you would find 90% of respondents voted IN.

I know plenty of Leave voters that appear reluctant to admit it.

If anyone asks me I will freely admit which way I voted. If they are ridiculous enough to want to break off our friendship, so be it. I'll live.

HelpfulChap Thank you, it is comforting to know :)

TheElementsSong Big hugs, I really hope this is not the case.

MangoMoon couldn't have put it better. I agree that we may not have chosen the same path but a lot of us on here have do have common goals. I think as time passes also things will get better as we find a middle-ground.

What I try to hang on to is that pretty much all of us, I hope, voted whichever way we did because we wanted the best future for our country (it goes without saying that this would be usually consistent with also wanting things to go well for ourselves). We just disagree on which path is the best.

Possibly we may not be able to reach agreement within our lifetimes - after all, Eurosceptics have been around since the 1970s so we Europhiles might also be hanging around, muttering crossly, for the next 40 years .

Lol at muttering crossly!

Hmmm... I never saw the EU as one big bloc. I mean Germans have remained decidedly German, and the French decidedly French. I haven't seen any of that changing in the decades of me being on Earth.

I don't mind a closer political union. We have to ask ourselves, why it is often the far right who call for an uncoupling from the EU. Maybe it's because the EU does not really tolerate extremist views much?

I don't mind a closer political union. We have to ask ourselves, why it is often the far right who call for an uncoupling from the EU. Maybe it's because the EU does not really tolerate extremist views much?

Do give over.

The far left tends to euroscepticism too. It's the ideologically mediocre middle that prioritises the market, it seems.

Hmmm... I never saw the EU as one big bloc. I mean Germans have remained decidedly German, and the French decidedly French. I haven't seen any of that changing in the decades of me being on Earth.

Your understanding of 'being a big bloc' would involve abandoning national cultural identity?

elements the night of the result, I felt sure the Leave campaign had lost

I saw the final poll and went to bed, feeling rather despondent; I felt very subdued as I had long held woes about the EU and it was my chance - our chance - to escape - before greater integration inexorably prevented it forever.

What cheered me was that all the debates on here and IRL (not Facebook) were from people with the best intentions, acting in the most noble way. We just disagreed what way that was.

So I felt OK that the vote hadn't gone my way, as I felt it had still been decided for the right reasons. That comforted me.

I will go as far as saying that growing up for me has been the understanding that we all think and feel differently and that there is rarely an absolute right or wrong. That probably sounds trite and facile to many but for someone as passionate and feisty as me, it's been the hallmark of becoming a little more mature!

Lol. I like your response Just5minswithDacre

I've just commented on another thread 'What have we learnt?' and am feeling decidedly more content with the world. I actually think it is amazing how the Mumsnet community have mostly been able to come together on this and see things from both sides yet the politicians and media are horrifically divisive. Anyway, on that note I'm off to bed. :)

Sleep well Maz. Most people are good 'uns

Maz, good article from Vince Cable about reaching across the 'tribes' (political & referendum) to move forward:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/post-brexit-britain-this-is-how-you-can-hold-the-conservatives-to-account-a7111321.html

Good article by Vince Cable.

Why is it that the LibDems are the only sane party of the UK, and yet people vote for Tory clowns and Labour madmen?!?

I voted Remain for the same reasons missmoon did upthread. To protect the rights of people lower down the socio economic scale.

I dont want giving birth in a workplace toilet to become a more regular occurence because the employee is too scared to take time off work.

Hmm, Vince lost me at sacrificing the city for immigration controls. I'm very far from being a city worker, but I think our financial services access to the single market is imperative to our economy.

Vince Cable speaks wisely. I only wish I shared his optimism that we all can come together. I know it's only been a week, and that feelings are still running high for many (hell, I'm not sure whether my feelings will ever recover).

The problem is that a week is a long time in finance, business and politics. While the country convulsed and tears itself apart, investments are freezing, businesses are actioning their plans to move jobs away, research funding is turning away, overseas students are choosing other more stable countries to go to university and the UK's much-vaunted international reputation is in tatters. I hope we can all agree whether we are Leavers or Remainers that these things are happening now?

Frankly, from what I have been reading on MN and other sites, I am really worried that there is actually no popular appetite to put aside our differences and heal the division.

The only people I see profiting massively from this situation are hedge fund managers and I doubt they care in the long run whether or not they are based in London - anywhere that will let them pay minimal tax and live a luxury lifestyle will do. I see no reason why the likes of Nissan would want to stay here if access to the EU market is diminished, unless we make ourselves competitive by banning the minimum wage and lowering employment protection rights. If we go through another recession, it's not as if we will be buying as many cars ourselves (unless the government uses taxpayers' money to subsidise it, thus reducing money available for our children's education and the NHS). And why bother to make steel here any more? Surely that's another one out of the window? And technology start ups - don't they favour free immigration? Surely all we have done is put ourselves in a position where we have to bow and scrape to the City even more than ever in the hope they hand over a tiny proportion of their massive earnings in tax and don't flounce off somewhere else?