Anyone feeling the country is dividing?

[Maz2444466]

I voted to Leave because I think the EU is anti-democratic and bureaucratic. I have absolutely no problem with immigration. I do believe though that integration is key for community cohesion.

I live in London and ALL my friends voted to remain. My best friend voted to Remain, I told her I voted to Remain as she thinks everyone who voted to Leave is racist and evil.

I feel like this referendum has created divides that were never there.

Is this just human nature? For people to follow the pack? I looked for a Facebook Leavers group tonight and everyone in it said how they love Nigel Farage. I don't.

I feel I can't relate to either side. I know this is a first world problem and I probably need to just get over myself but does anyone else feel like this?

I wish the government had made this decision for us!

"He said he is a EU beurocrat and although leaving the EU would likely result in his job loss he's happy with that as its an unnecessary bureaucratic machine and in the long run we would be better off out of it."

"I completely filtered out Farage's camp, his smarmy face standing next to his bus poster in glee furthered my disinterest in absolutely anything he has to say. I still think he represents a tiny minority."

I totally agree Maz, thank you for posting this.

I am beginning to fear that the wound caused by this referendum may never heal .

Perhaps we need a MN group for the quiet Leavers

This please, I want to be in this group

but I would have accepted the vote and got on with making the best I could of the situation.

You say that, and you may well be being truthful - but the petition for a second referendum was set up by a Leave campaigner (and a member of the charming EDL iirc).

Maz2444466

How is the EU with its 28 EU commissioners appointed by elected representatives more 'undemocratic' than the UK that has the House of Lords (800 members - not appointed by elected representatives) and the Queen?!?

And Nigel Farage made it quite plain that he found a result of 48/52 to be a small majority and unfinished business. However after the event this result is now described as an overwhelming majority and any protest about it are portrayed as anarchy and demonstrators are fascist. If that logic is followed through the conclusion is that Farage is a facist.

Snowbells Two wrongs doesn't make a right

One group wished to regain UK sovereignty, but would wish to retain full access to European markets through the European Economic Area or some other arrangement. For this group, achieving that would mean keeping free movement of persons. The MEP Daniel Hannan would favour that option

Me too.

If leave voters like us that are the middle ground and have more in common with remain than we do with the shouty leavers whose motivation was purely sovereignty and immigration controls at the cost of not being able to access the free market.

I'm not sure I'll fit into the quiet leavers group as I've been very vocal that this is my reason for voting leave.

It's time the quiet leavers shouted for what they want because there's still a proportion of the remain voters who think we are uneducated xenophobes. We need to join with remain to get the best deal with the EU possible and retain the benefits of a free market.

And for another take on it:

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/17/eu-is-now-a-profoundly-anti-democratic-institution

Maz2444466

You start cleaning up your own backyard first - that's what has the most impact on your life. The EU hardly had any influence on people's lives! Most of the examples people bring up are UK government decisions.

Even the stupid speech by Gove reflected that. He complained about the bankers' salaries, etc. Well... how come London bankers earn a LOT more in salary and bonus than their counterparts in Paris and Frankfurt?!? It's not an EU problem now, isn't it.

It's the UK.

Can we all vote for an exit out of the UK please.

Joysmum - I would agree that more people with your view need to be coal about this.

There seems to be an assumption across all parties that the leave vote was purely because of immigration. If we get a PM who takes a hardline view and sacrifices the single market in favour of 'shutting' the borders, I personally feel that they would be kertowing to a minority.

Moderate leavers (which I want to believe make up the largest group) need to be protesting as much as remainers to make sure this toes nt happen as the financial implications could be catastrophic.

A read below the line on any dm article about TM shows they are not at all happy about her becoming PM, they want someone who will push the button pronto, get us completely out of the eu, and I think repatriation would probably be high on many of their wish lists.

That prospect is truly scary and NOT what the vast majority of this country (leavers and remainers together) would like to see

Coal = vocal

I read that Guardian note.

Funny that. So a newspaper in the UK, a country in which a large part of the population does not want to accept refugees (one of the reasons for this whole shebang), puts a picture of refugees on top of a note saying how mean the EU is because it discriminates against those outside the EU.

WTF.

If you think of the EU as undemocratic because of this, maybe you should tell the whole world to drop all borders. Let's see what your fellow Leavers will think of that.

Joysmum and LittlePickleHead I do agree that we need to come together on this, it's the moderate voice from both sides that I think will take us forward. I would actually have much preferred us to stay in a reformed EU but I couldn't see that happening and the article in the Guardian I linked to highlights all the reasons I felt this...

Going forward, I think Daniel Hannan's way is the most preferable. I wish he was standing for PM! I'm hoping there will be a soft exit and we will stay in the single market. I don't think that is implausible given the fact that the majority of MPs in the government were on the side of Remain.

Snowbells please stop denigrating my views, I'm finding it draining. I don't know if that is your aim?

I really wanted to start this post to try to come together...

Maz2444466

Back to that Guardian article of yours..

The EU is irreversibly committed to privatisation, welfare cuts, low wages and the erosion of trade union rights.

The UK has gone so far into privatization, I don't actually know what to say. Look at trains here. Why are they so bloody expensive compared to Germany? (Also, why are they always so late? In Germany, customers complain when the train is just 5 minutes late!)

The Deutsche Bahn (German Railway) is still owned by the state. The SCNF (French Railway) is also state-owned. What did the UK do?!?

This is why the dominant forces of British capitalism and the majority of the political elite are in favour of staying in the EU.

It's not. It's because economically, it makes sense. Bankers get paid more in London than any other EU country. Figure that one out.

Maz2444466

I am just trying to be the voice of reason amongst all the garbage the UK media provides. This is exactly why I decided years ago not to subscribe to any UK newspaper anymore. Turns out foreign newspapers provide more balanced reports than UK newspapers that all have some sort of agenda.

Really good points here.

It's all or nothing on offer.

But how many Leave voters had major problems with the concept of free movement in a vast and diverse EU yet were completely on board with the notion of immigration generally?

The issue of immigration to me meant a proper consideration of how it was working under the EU and implementing a fairer system for everyone thereafter. It also meant dealing with genuine refugees properly and humanely and ensuring all member states played their part.

I have absolutely no idea how we voice these concerns.

I have felt sick all week at the notion that my vote has somehow contribute to an agenda for widespread racism.

And throughout this sickness, I have realised what a melting pot it had all become and that if Remain had won, there would likely have been riots.

Which makes me extremely pissed off with the EU generally that has a principle that results in annual migration in the thousands to the poorer parts of a country which already has a huge gap between its rich and poor.

It is nice to read a post from a moderate leaver. There's another live post at the moment on the March where the OP has a very nasty tone.

The truth is the country is split down the middle. I am a passionate remainer, and my view is that I think a lot of people voted to protest their lot generally, rather than against the EU. Which was fair enough, as frankly their lot did not sound great to me. However, if they thought the Eu was responsible for a lot of their ills, then they were misled. It's the elected lot in the House of Commons who forgot about them, and abandoned those cities and towns.

In my job, I already know of a lot of inward investment into the UK being cancelled or postponed. The FTSE 100 doesn't reflect that: the 100 are companies with global footprints. They may be listed here, but they are not as exposed to UK risk. I also know that when we talk about being "nimble" to compete, it's code for reduced employment rights - the ability to hire and fire. So I am truly worried about our future as a nation.

But apparently if I express that, it's indicative of my sour grapes and that my side lost, and I'm talking the country down!

I feel people are hardening into personalities of "I'm a Leaver/Remainer". This can't be a zero sum game where the winner takes all, as we all have to live together.

The Daily Mail is encouraging this divisiveness. Already I see the Mail pivoting to blame "Remoaners" for what I (consistent with my beliefs) believe is the inevitable consequence of Brexit. The divisions they are creating and nurturing might take a generation to undo.

We have never needed sensible leadership more badly, and we have never been more disappointed with the two main political parties. If we have to exit then a soft exit is best. A hard exit will hurt very badly the people who voted for it most.

It sounds silly, but frankly we as a family can leave the UK if we wish. We can live in a number of countries. It's the people who can't leave that I am worried about.

Snowbells

I agree that most of the media articles are biased, that's why I read the Guardian, Telegraph and the New Statesman hoping to find a middle ground by comparing what they have to say.

I'm not saying the Guardian article is entirely right. No article is, just like no viewpoint is but it does make same valid points. More than anything though I just don't see why we need another bureaucratic machine in Brussels when we already have enough bureaucrats in the UK.

maz I do that too! I also read the comments.

The DM comments versus the Guardian comments? Probably different planets.

I was always a Guardian supporter until the Cologne attacks last year when I feel they threw women's rights under a bus. I wrote to tell them same and the buggers never replied.

Maz2444466

I understand that. I hate bureaucracy, too. But I can also see the danger of what will happen if Europe does not have a united front. There is no doubt China will rise soon. By 2030, they are meant to have produced more graduates than the entire workforce of the US. Which means... forget blue collar jobs (that will be old news), white collar jobs will be in danger then, too. When that day comes, I would prefer myself and my kids to be part of a big union that can actually hold its own and protect the rights of its citizens across several countries.

Roonerspism

I totally agree with you. I find the concept of it having gone the other way terrifying as on the whole the people I have spoken to who voted to Remain on Mumsnet and Facebook have been more reasonable than some of the more vocal Leavers but I think that is because moderate Leavers haven't come out because they would hate to be associated with the xenophobia.

I'm also scared that we will now have a far right Tory government. I'm hoping there is a snap general election and a viable candidate for the Labour Party stands. I'm not going to Corbyn bash but we need someone who will appeal to such a wide demographic of people and he's appealing to the far-left only which just isn't enough. I really like the MP Chukka Ummuna. He stood for the Remain side in the debates and although I didn't agree with everything he said he represented fair and logical arguments.

**Has anyone personally said to you that you are a racist? We all have to live with the consequences of this. Have you spared one second of thought to how non-British people are feeling now, with race hate crimes increasing by 500% and the threat of having to leave. I'm not responsible for your guilt.

Yes I have been personally accused of being racist, by someone who didn't know me in person purely coz I said I voted to leave - I didn't say anything before that to give any impression I was racist
We would have all had to live with the consequences if remain had one too- that's my point in all this, either way we had the unknown staring us in the face. At least now we can be in control of our fate!
And I have lots of non-British friends who voted to leave thank you so don't for one second think that all non British people are against the vote. Stupid racists would always be spouting there shit since the vote no matter which side won at hate crimes are purely just getting more attention now as a scare tactic imo!

There is no threat about it - we are going to be leaving the EU so m accept it and get on with it!

And I'm not feeling any guilt in my vote thank you! I'm very happy with the way I voted and have nothing to feel guilty about!