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Brexit

march for europe - london - saturday 2nd july

227 replies

xmasadsboohiss · 29/06/2016 22:44

www.facebook.com/events/1732671000335981/

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15
HelpfulChap · 01/07/2016 07:02

I think i follow.

Its your democratic right to protest against a democratic result to Leave.

What would have been the MN reaction to a Leave demo against a Remain victory with the same voting numbers? Would have made for interesting reading.

ARumWithAView · 01/07/2016 07:08

I find it telling that the Leave voters are so antsy and defensive that they can't even leave a thread like this alone -- a thread that was created so people could share info about attending, discuss logistics, etc. Are there not enough threads already open to debate? Do you lack opportunities to repeat the same Daily-Mail-cribbed cartoonish rhetoric about 'the voice of the people' versus 'the Establishment'?

I'm not an anarchist. The last time I went on a protest march was 2003, against the Iraq War. Did it do anything? Did it bollocks! Am I glad I went? Yes. Should I have shut up, because we live in a representational democracy and the wise figures we the people voted into Parliament felt that the invasion was a great idea?

That march, like this one, has little to do with any hope that major policy will be changed. It's about showing the depth of feeling and range of opposition involved, and hoping that at least influences the way this huge fuckup is handled.

Since Mooingcow has helpfully compiled an imaginary list of why people might attend, here are some other suggestions:

  • because we want to make a clear statement of support for Europe and European workers in this country.
  • because far right gloating and 'go home'-type intimidation has increased since the result, and we don't want twatbadgers like that to be the most vocal faction in this country.
  • because we have lived and worked in Europe before and value that experience.
  • because we've lived and worked in non-EU countries, particularly America, and learnt that we're more European than we knew (and that the rest of the world, even countries with whom we have 'special relationships', are far, far more indifferent to us than we assumed).
  • because the range of education and employment opportunities available to our kids has narrowed.
  • because the Brexit campaign has openly lied and misled voters, and holds no accountability for that whatsoever.
  • because one of the main supporters of Brexit has now decided he cannot actually face dealing with the consequences, which shows an ominous lack of foresight or confidence.
  • because this is turning out to be a power struggle for the tory leadership, despite cheerful guff about it being 'the voice of the people'; the latter is actually just being used shamelessly, irresponsibly for leverage (although that's gone a bit tits up for Boris 'oh shit: we won?' Johnson).
  • because we are embarrassed at the behaviour of Farage in EU parliament.
  • because we work in the academic community, which is almost entirely opposed to Brexit, which will damage funding, research, collaboration and leave our institutions struggling to compete globally.
  • because we work in the financial sector, which will gradually (or quickly) relocate to other European bases if passporting rights are affected. (Don't like finance? Fine! But you didn't vote against the banks: all that you achieve is that this country won't profit from their presence.)
  • because we work in agriculture, and have been promised a replacement for EU subsidies (which, amongst other functions, keep smaller and medium-sized farms competitive in the face of huge agri-businesses and the much more profitable factory farming): given the rate at which core assurances of the Brexit campaign are being retracted, we think that stands repeating.
  • because we're about to get a new prime minister, for whom none of us voted (yay, control!), and we hope it'll be one who'll take a balanced approach to exit negotiations, rather than spitting in the faces of the same people we want to trade with.
  • because we hope for damage limitation: a deal struck that retains trading rights and freedom of movement, and doesn't wreck our relationships in Europe or turn us into a tiny, recession-struck, isolationist country.

And I'm sure I'll think of a few others. It's just pathetic to see the tactics used by Brexiters on this thread. If you're so sure you've got right on your side and the popular mandate, why are you here, trying to intimidate people with talk of violence ('don't take your kids!'), snide dismissiveness ('it''ll achieve nothing, but jog on') and confused attempts to paint anyone who marches as both an anarchist AND an elitist ('if you march, you think 52% are stupid racists!'), AND a lapdog of the establishment, and... whatever else you've got.

No Brexiter has ever actually answered this question, so don't exert yourselves, but I want to know: don't you have any personal conscience at all? Is there no referendum result you'd protest, or does the 'voice of the people' trump every opinion and belief you hold?

If we'd voted 52/48 to ban abortion, or cut DLA, or bring back hanging -- would you shrug and accept that the people had spoken, or would you be using democratic means to make sure your dissenting voice was heard?

Allisgood1 · 01/07/2016 07:13

Right. So let me get this straight.

The remainers are marching to fight against democracy in the hopes that it will allow us to remain in an (undemocratic) EU?

And I wonder why this doesn't sit right with me. Hmm

VulcanWoman · 01/07/2016 07:14

What the F is this Daily Mail quoting all the time, I don't even read it.

Surferjet · 01/07/2016 07:20

If we'd voted 52/48 to ban abortion, or cut DLA, or bring back hanging -- would you shrug and accept that the people had spoken, or would you be using democratic means to make sure your dissenting voice was heard

Non comparable. Those are human rights issues. Leaving the EU isn't.

I'll leave your thread because you've asked me to & I respect your wishes.

Enjoy your march - I'll be at home remembering real heros.

RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs · 01/07/2016 07:20

The remainers are marching to fight against democracy in the hopes that it will allow us to remain in an (undemocratic) EU?

^^ This.
But I absolutely back their march. That is democracy!

RainYourRottingMyDhaliaBulbs · 01/07/2016 07:23

It is NOT DEMOCRACY to lie and mislead masses of people into voting something which isn't for their own good

Shock
WidowWadman · 01/07/2016 07:24

You're really upset about it coinciding with the Somme centenary? When should people be allowed to express their anger and worry about the country being fucked right now? Seriously, get a grip.

ARumWithAView · 01/07/2016 07:37

If we'd voted 52/48 to ban abortion, or cut DLA, or bring back hanging -- would you shrug and accept that the people had spoken, or would you be using democratic means to make sure your dissenting voice was heard.

Non comparable. Those are human rights issues. Leaving the EU isn't.

Does the 'people's voice' contain less mandate or authority when human rights are involved? Why isn't it equally valid across all issues?

SugarPlumTree · 01/07/2016 07:43

I was expecting protest marches etc by leave if the result was the other way, Farage had already said if if was 52/48 it was not unfinished business and he would be pushing for another referendum.

You're not understanding the depth of feeling this has caused for remain voters as we clearly have not understood your depth of feeling on leave. A fair number are in shock and it feels similar to a bereavement, it will take time to come to terms with and you are witnessing the stages of grief. If Leave don't let people work their emotions out now, the divide which has smashed open will take many many years to heal.

I know some are going to say 'over dramatic, much?' In response to my comparison to grief. But I lost my Mum 4 weeks ago and my DD left Home 2 weeks ago to live in Europe so I am very up to date with what grief feels like and I am seeing it amongst my remain friends.

For the record I'm not going to the March and am trying to come to terms with the result as best I can.

ARumWithAView · 01/07/2016 07:43

You're really upset about it coinciding with the Somme centenary? When should people be allowed to express their anger and worry about the country being fucked right now? Seriously, get a grip.

It's a shameless appropriation of other people's sacrifice, used as a convenient way to shut down debate. See also: countless references to WW2. The convenient thing about using war dead to make your point is that there's no chance of them speaking up and saying 'bugger this: I didn't fight so you could invoke me as a justification for destabilising Europe again'.

InShockReally · 01/07/2016 07:46

I find it telling that the Leave voters are so antsy and defensive that they can't even leave a thread like this alone

I agree. If I felt secure I'd just back away and watch it all fall into place. I wouldn't be here hurling insults and being rude and dismissive.

I was going to mention the Iraq War one too - it didn't stop the actions sadly, but I guess at least it gave history a chance to see a lot of people were so utterly fucked off with it that they got up and onto the streets to say "not in my name". How often does that happen in the UK?

And hopefully this situation is not pre-planned in advance and ready to roll as that war was. Well, there's no hopefully about it - we know it wasn't!

Yy to every word you've said Rum.

CaptainBrickbeard · 01/07/2016 07:47

Rum, what a brilliant and articulate post. Thank you.

Allisgood1 · 01/07/2016 07:50

I find it telling that the Leave voters are so antsy and defensive that they can't even leave a thread like this alone

Yes. Because the remain voters have left all the leave voter posts alone HmmHmmConfused

AntiqueSinger · 01/07/2016 07:55

Well I'll be there. If only so I can DS that I did what I could.

As for the brexiters on this thread insinuating that protesting is wrong, a waste of time, and (lol when their out vote has made billionaires like Murdoch delighted) supporting the elite. Why are you here? I thought the future was bright and glorious, a new Elizabethan golden age?

If I really believed that and was on the leaving side, I'd be too busy celebrating to give a toss about what those who had lost were doing. I'd be busying myself executing my plans oh you mean there isn't one and the man who you followed to the promised land has lost the directions?

Couldn't be feeling a tad insecure that the wonderful utopia you were promised may just not materialise could you?

glitterbomb80 · 01/07/2016 08:07

Well said, Rum. Given that the EU project's mission is peace in Europe, there is no more fitting time to march in support of it.

Imbroglio · 01/07/2016 08:35

I would argue that leaving the EU is a human rights issue.

We will no longer be under the jurisdiction of the European Courts of Human Rights.

And who is campaigning on behalf of refugees? No-one.

fakenamefornow · 01/07/2016 08:47

I wish I could be there. I would go because I want the world to see the UK was split on this, this wasn't a resounding vote in favour of leaving the EU, many, many people didn't want this and don't want to throw away all the rights EU membership gives us and our children. I also want future generations of my family to know that I was against this and I did everything I could. If other marches happen, I will be there.

JaneG123 · 01/07/2016 08:49

please note , the referendum is only advisory, it is not a mandate. Only the government can make the decision to leave the EU and are not obliged to by any law to adhere to the result. It is essentially a consultation process.

again leave voters do seem to have some lack of knowledge about the referendum and implications of the whole process and this is why we are in the mess we are in now. Using foul language again confirms my thoughts about some of the leave voters

JaneG123 · 01/07/2016 08:53

i think there has been some lack of clarity on the human rights issue for us voters so I looked into this myself and found the following info

The United Kingdom has signed the European Convention on Human Rights, which is an international treaty enforced by the Council of Europe—a group of 47 countries from Iceland to Russia. leaving the EU wouldn't make a difference to the European Convention of human rights.

What it would mean is that we aren't covered by EU human rights laws, which haven't had as much of an impact so far, but are in some ways more wide-ranging. These laws are contained in the EU's Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Just5minswithDacre · 01/07/2016 08:54

I would argue that leaving the EU is a human rights issue.

Seriously? It's just a club.

We will no longer be under the jurisdiction of the European Courts of Human Rights.

Incorrect;

[[http://www.crosslandsolicitors.com/site/crossland_news/brexit_eweida_achbita_ECJ_ECHR_html_2016]

LurkingHusband · 01/07/2016 09:19

I would argue that leaving the EU is a human rights issue.

We will no longer be under the jurisdiction of the European Courts of Human Rights.

And there - in a single post - is everything that has been wrong with this fucking referendum from the start.

THE EU HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ECHR

That was a lie that the Leavers never articulated, but were happy to let people believe. It was certainly - in the early phase - something a lot of Leavers claimed "Get out of the EU with their pesky human rights". But it simply isn't true.

When even a (presumably) Remain supporter is unaware of the facts, what hope was there for a balanced and mature debate ?

ARumWithAView · 01/07/2016 09:39

LurkingHusband, the human rights aspect on this thread came up because I asked the 'any protest is pathetic/undemocratic/bitter: the PEOPLE have spoken' contingent if they would accept, without question or dissent, a 52/48 referendum on other issues, including banning abortion or reintroducing capital punishment.

The only response given was that these are human rights issues, and therefore different. Not explained how they're different: unsuitable to be put to referendum? Can be put to referendum, but we don't have to legislate according to the result? Is the 'people's voice' unreliable on these issues, but sacrosanct on others?

IMO, whether people have a clear and accurate view of how leaving the EU may (or may not) involve human rights issues is (to a certain extent) beyond the point, now. People have voted. What interests me is the way Brexiters here are trying to shut down, shame or mock anyone's democratic right to protest... but are unable to account for their own response to other referendums which might result in legislative changes to which they strongly, personally object.

I know the issues are different, but isn't the principle the same? Why would 'the people have spoken' end one debate so conclusively, but not another? Do we have faith in direct democracy or not?

xmasadsboohiss · 01/07/2016 09:45

I'm really shocked at the tone of some of the posts on here. If I, as a Remain supporter, am a fascist and an anarchist and a person who is disrespectful towards this country's remembrance ceremonies I've done a very good job of hiding it under a cloak of dull respectability for the last twenty five years. To throw around insults like that helps no one and I would respectfully ask people who don't support the march to stop using language like that on this thread please.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 01/07/2016 09:47

ARumWithAView

My reply was to Imbroglio

I would argue that leaving the EU is a human rights issue. We will no longer be under the jurisdiction of the European Courts of Human Rights.

Which is factually incorrect. I quite agree the whole Brexit process has deep implications for human rights. However in respect of a demonstration/march the rights of freedom of expression and to protest are key.

We are very early days yet. I think it's fair to say that with all the free unicorns something the Brexit campaign sidestepped was the fact that in the event of a Leave win; especially with a narrow margin, then the reaction of the Remain side would be so fierce and bitter.

Both sides are on a mirror. If Remain had won by the same margin, they would be facing the vitriol of the losing Leave side.

The whole thing has become - dare I say - religious in it's conflict. Which was inevitable when the question was Yes/No.