Why is Scotland so different?

[Indiestarr]

Does anyone have any insight? Presumably Scotland has the same post-industrial decline and deprivation issues as the north east of England and Wales, and yet their vote was pretty much the complete opposite of these areas. How is it they are almost uniformly progressive when the rest of the UK (NI aside) is anything but?

It might not be for you, but for a significant proportion of Scots there is an underlying element of bigotry and xenophobia underlying both the ABE attitude to football and the push from independence. And laughing it off as only a game gives validation to it and I am getting fucking sick of it.

Ask yourself if you'd be happy walking down Buchanan st wearing an England tshirt and tell me there's no problem?

*for independence

Scotland voted to stay in the EU as it has had lots of EU funding and doesn't have many immigrants compared to areas of England.

I am not sure that we will vote for independence just because missus sturgeon says so. She said we would last time and was wrong.

The SNPs policies are ridiculous imo. But folk are brainless and if someone stands up and tells them they are doing a great job (missus S) they assume she is correct.

School education levels are not good, TAs have been removed from schools to save money, we have much less income from oil now, I don't know where the money is going to come from to run the country to be honest, we have little industry.The countryside is covered in wind turbines ( heavily subsidized needless to say) obviously not an asset to a country which hopes for income from tourism, the big brother style named person ruling so all children are watched, lack of GPs. lack of hospital consultants, The refusal to raise taxes on the rich after decades of stating that that is what they would do. Not a good scenario.
But as I said people are brainless and might choose to continue along this path.

Your experience is your experience.

I don't like anti-English sentiment. I rarely even notice if people I am speaking to are English or Scots nor do I think about it. There are people I have known for years without knowing where they are 'from'.

I have a good eye roll at the ABE but I don't let myself get het up about it.

As football rivalries go it has nothing on the Old Firm.

Threats of violence are an entirely different thing.

Mentioning one and then accusing people of condoning the other is at best disingenuous.

You didn't answer my question. Would you feel nervous wearing an England football shirt in Buchanan st? Would you just get a bit of banter or something more? Would that be ok with you?

You compare it with a choice of football team. You can change your football team, you can't change your place of birth. I'm not the one being disingenuous here.

You only need to read the comments on the Wings over Bath blog to realise the amount of racism that underpins the indy movement.

Would that be ok with you?

Ffs. Threats are not ok. I have said this and said this and said this.

I wouldn't wear an England top on B St. For two reasons I don't live in Glasgow and I don't support England. If, however, I were an England supporter and there was a match on I might. I have been out with friends in England tops. No one has threatened them. Your experience and mine are not the same.

There is supporting a team. And there is being an arsehole.

I presume you weren't supporting Iceland and nor was your dh? Is that because you are anti-Icelandic?
The two are not equivalent.
As I am sure you are aware some England supporters were involved in violence recently. Does that make all English people thugs? Does it even make all England football supporters thugs? Does it even make all travelling England supporters thugs? Nope. It just makes the actual people responsible nasty little criminals. You get small minded idiots everywhere.

But you answer me this - was the Yes campaign predicated on immigration in the same way as Leave? Not individual voters/bloggers/idiots/tossers- actual official campaign? Actual Scottish politicians on the Yes side - did any of them mention limiting the number of people coming into Scotland from England or stopping them getting benefits or setting up a points system?

Yes you have said threats are not ok, but in a way you are condoning anti English sentiment by saying "it's just football".

I have worn an England top in Glasgow. It was an eye opener and why I am now very hard on ABE bullshit.

Have a wee look on Twitter at some of the SNP politician's tweets. It's not hard to find anti English sentiment. The official campaign said nothing about immigration, but there is a nasty bigoted streak running through the SNP.

The official campaign said nothing about immigration

Actually the official campaign was pro immigration. They didn't just stay quiet on the subject.

Being disingenuous again are we? You knew what I meant.

trixy, I worked in an English bar and had to refuse someone food, as we had stopped serving then....I was told "might have known it was a bloody Scot who refused me"

and the ABE is well over played, why dont you wear a Scotland top and walk through Leeds or Birmingham and see if everyone ignores you..

As a note, I have walked through the centre of Glasgow at 11 pm in a Millwall shirt. No trouble at all. I also cheered at the end of Braveheart while drunk in a cinema and survived. Got some looks but nothing else.

Very posh English accent btw.

And yeah, there are some nasty nationalists up here. As there are down south. Nowhere is perfect, but I do think it's possible to be pro-Scotland in a positive and non-toxic way.

Sorry tabsicle, but who the hell would recognise a millwall shirt ?!

I would feel no fear wearing a Scotland shirt in England.

Hmm reckon I touched some nerves here.

And I'm not denying there's some anti scots idiots in England, of course there are, I have also been on the receiving end of it too.

You can't use football in Scotland as a measure of anything, it's a mess.

I'd wear an England top, with a st George's cross hat while Morris dancing down Buchanan street before I'd wear an old firm top and wander round Glasgow...

Football is a thing of its own.

As I pointed out before, supporting the old firm is a choice. Being born in England isn't. You can't compare the two.

The old firm are another thing to be mortified about though ill give you that, and in fact football in general is an embarrassment.

Football is, in a way, a thing of its own, but this is the sort of thing I've seen:

In our village, if say, England were playing Argentina, there would be an Argentinian flag flying outside the local pub. I dunno, it just feels a bit vindictive. By all means, don't actively support England, ignore the match or whatever, but what is fuelling the desire to fly the opponent's flag? It's a way of saying 'fuck you, English' and to any English living here, it feels unwelcoming [understatement].

By way of contrast, if England doesn't qualify for a big tournament (increasingly common), they tend to go, ah fuck it, who's the nearest to us, we'll support them, and go with Scotland, or Ireland, or whoever.

There just feels like a simmering resentment. Not from everyone, certainly, but from more than just an extreme minority.

It's all mixed up with football rivalries though, it's like arsenal fans supporting whoever Tottenham are playing...Scottish fans have a huge chip on their shoulders about England (the team) and it's not as simple as it being because they're English.

trixymalixy - I am slowly bringing the word of Millwall to the wilds of the North.

I think, btw, people are confusing the kind of national mockery you get all over (you know, making jokes about the French or Welsh in England) and genuine aggression.

My OH is Welsh, I'm English, we live in Scotland and one of our best rugby watching friends is Irish. Too right I'm used to teasing about being the Auld Enemy. But are they actually threatening me? Of course not. I've watched the Six Nations in Glaswegian pubs and had similar jokes but no threat.

Compare that to Rangers v Celtic...

Latin gets what I mean. There's a viciousness that underlies the ABE thing that doesn't really exist in any of the other home nation rivalries and all those that laugh off ABE as a joke are legitimising that.

SmallLegs you can call it what you like.

for my child, born and made in Scotland, to be told to 'fuck off back to where you came from' by his classmates, wearing SNP badges in School, and for School not to have addressed that, is very worrying. Certainly it made him come home and ask: 'am I not Scottish enough'? coupled with the English accent remark (which was made by some horrible old bat with an impenetrable local accent, and snorted over by 4 members of staff inc the Head in the meeting) and a number of other things (coming home from a topic on Flodden telling us that 'you would have been my enemy and my teacher says I'd have had to kill you' - confirmed by teacher) then, yes, there is a local problem. Not just me and my school though.

So, my son asks me about racism and is this racism and I say, Yes. it is.

"There's a viciousness that underlies the ABE thing that doesn't really exist in any of the other home nation rivalries"

It does exist in Scottish football though, the old firm rivalry is really vicious, hearts and hibs as well - and yes they're not straightforward either, but you can't seperate out one example and go, yep that's solely to do with England and not also being part of the fact that actually Scottish football in general has a dark underbelly.

I'm happy to be corrected on this as I live in England, but I don't think Scotland, Wales or NI have the equivalent of the home counties - people who are relatively comfortably off, don't live in places with high immigration, buy the Daily Mail and are instinctively conservative. This is a huge part of the population of England.

I also think a large number of people from depressed communities in England and Wales were voting emotionally, rather than pragmatically for any kind of change. On the other hand, in Scotland the change those people can vote for is independence.

"but I don't think Scotland, Wales or NI have the equivalent of the home counties"

Couldn't tell you about other countries, but yes Scotland does...they're not as big though, and I think still more mixed as in you can have an area more like that, but right next to it isn't.

supporting the old firm is a choice That's debatable in some areas of the country.