To think that Boris didn't actually want Brexit to happen

[hownottofuckup]

And that something else was afoot entirely?
Possibly with David's support, or knowledge at least.
There's been quite a bit about the divide between him and his family (not that that means much necessarily)
His propaganda for leaving was ridiculous in the extreme (£350 million a week for the NHS?)
His reaction since the results were announced
I can't help but wonder if he seriously misjudged the voting populace and this was never his intention at all. More a tactical move with a view to securing something else entirely, purely for his own personal gain.
You could never really accuse Boris of being in touch with the 'common people' after all.

They are silent because they did not expect to win, had no realistic plan and were bullied by Farage. Boris wants power and has used the fears of the British public to get it. He used very deliberate, easy to remember strap lines like "Independence Day" and others to ensure people got the simple message he was promoting. People have been duped by him and also by Corbyn who never promoted all the good work the EU actually did for workers' rights. Farage and Boris were given a wide open space in which to play.

It also now appears there are also few people who have the experience to negotiate trade deals. It is something where are expertise is limited because the EU did it for us so don't expect very much being done very quickly. No-one thought about this. This will be just one of a long list of things the rhetoric has not addressed. Perhaps Gove and Boris will learn negotiating skills? Far more difficult than spewing out one liners about how great we are!

I agree. I think he was trying to outmanoeuvre Osbourne so that He could sweep in on the anti-eu ticket when DC stepped down in 3 years time.

Oh dear.

Or do I mean somber, anyway ...

Although I think Boris probably is a Remainer in his heart of hearts and campaigned for Brexit purely out of personal ambition (stuffing the country in the process) I don't buy that he was shocked at the outcome. He is far too calculating for that.

He might have been a wee bit suprised that Cameron resigned so promptly and dumped the re-negotiating in his and Gove's lap, but I suspect he will have considered all scenarios.

Although his response to the vote was muted and he said "Article 50 doesn't have to be invoked" and that there was "no need to rush to Brexit" (or words to the same effect) I reckon he is:

(a) trying to appear statesmanlike (by trying to unify and pacify) because he has the Premiership firmly in his sights (and he has the political savvy to know that a gloating Farage makes people feel physically sick)

and

(b) he is trying to appear as though he is still open to negotiating with the EU and that all is not lost so that when it all goes belly up, and he and Brexiteer cohorts can't deliver all the things they promised, he can say that he tried to re-negatiate and "do his best for Britain but those horrible EU leaders wouldn't let me" thus neatly evading all the flak himself.

I tell you, he's right dogdgy!

It also now appears there are also few people who have the experience to negotiate trade deals.

This was apparent in the run-up to the vote. It's one of the things that influenced me to vote Remain.

I don't think Dave will be bringing Tunnocks to Brussels, what with them being Scottish. I think he may be trying to put the Scotland question out of his mind for now.

Tss - Nicola wants another Scottish referendum as one of the key reasons the scots voted to stay in was EU membership. She can get that!

TSSDNCOP Thank you for that - I live in Hastings and the fishing fleet down here seem to have all voted Leave based on cod quotas. They have no awareness of sustainability into the future. Never mind, as long as they don't have to rely on cuttlefish catches...

Slingcrump agree on gloating Farage. Hearing the news,as I did, from him yesterday made me actually cry.

I voted remain, but I accept because I have no choice the vote. But now I bloody well expect the politicians like Boris who led the campaign to sort out the aftermath and get the show on the road.

He can start with using that £350 million quid. Oh, wait....

Oh yes, I heard on the radio this morning that there have been so many cuts in Whitehall over the years that now there simply aren't enough Sir Humphreys to renegotiate or manage all the new deals.

So there will be a massive backlog as soon as it begins.

Allegreto it's Christmas for her. She wanted another referendum the day after the last one. 24 hours being a generation after all. The Leave vote couldn't be better for her.

Yes exactly Laz the fishing industry, will rise Phoenix like. Quite what they plan to catch and in the volume they firmly anticipate is questionable. I personally am swapping all my Hobbs city dresses for waders and a sou'wester.

I agree with you.

The man is playing a game.I don't know what it is, but I don't think it quite went to plan yesterday. He looked as stunned as the rest of the country.

Sadiq Khan has turned on Boris now. He's basically saying Boris has shafted London.

And another senior Tory Sir Alan Johnson has said that both Boris and Osborne can fuck off with their chances. In nicer language of course!

Could be dicey for Boris. He's pissed off a lot of people.

Agreed TSSDNCOP - this is a joyful event for SNP. However Elspeth's point about there not being enough experienced negotiators in Whitehall is much, much worse in Scotland.

The SNP is a young, inexperienced, one ticket party. I attended Any Questions and an SNP MP was there, she was frankly embarrassing, and this is presumably one of the better ones or they wouldn't have let her loose on a public debate.

They won't be able to negotiate any sort of a deal at all in Brussels, the EU will screw them/us over and Scots will vote Yes anyway because they like the notion better than the reality ( kind of like the Leave vote).

I do hope Boris has some cunning connivery up his sleeve. I really do.

rookie, that's a really interesting perspective on the SNP and one that I hadn't thought about at all.

I wonder what Brussels will offer them when/if they make it over for negotiations then? I'll be watching with great interest.

Can someone answer whether, in the single market/eea type scenario, which looks most realistic I suppose, whether the free movement works both way, ie would British citizens still get free movement throughout EU even though we are not EU ourselves?

Probably. Norwegian and Swiss citizens do, I imagine that will be the deal if we stay in the EEA. Which we probably will. While it's true about wanting to make examples etc, equally it's in Germany's interests in particular for us to be in it. This will, of course, mean having to abide by EU law without getting a say in it, but will still probably be a better gig than no single market access at all so we'll suck it up.

It only struck me at Any Questions.

Until then I'd only seen the public face of the SNP which is Nicola and whilst not being an SNP supporter, she is clearly a very intelligent woman and has a great PR team on her side. The majority of the SNP have only been in power for a short period and take great pride in not being skilled in political shenanigans, because they are of the people.

To be honest, it doesn't matter too much what sort of a deal she manages.

If Scottish gets another referendum no matter what the circumstances, I can see it being a Yes due to increased distrust of what's happening South of the border.

Fun times.

Do we gain any advantage by being in the EEA rather than a full EU member?

Yes boner that's exactly my take. It's a ridiculous positio. To put ourselves I. Compared to membership but as we are I. Damage limitation territory it's probably our best bet. And agree about Germany too. We may find ourselves lucky that the most influential member of the Eu needs us most.

As far as I've read about Norway.....no.

I think we all know the politicians aren't going to be the ones that actually sort this fiasco out, although they'll absolutely try to either take credit or apportion blame.

But the prospect of the Sir Humphries not being there to save the day (given we all know that's who do the real work) is fairly fucking chilling.

The thing is, all the bus miss people have been making plans for this outcome. Why aren't we already seeing the same in Wedtminster. I cannot bear Nicola, but you've got to admit she doesn't let the grass grow under her feet.

Why hasn't Parliament been called in today? This is HUGE. A seismic event. So where's the bloody action.

rookie, yes, I agree; I'm not particularly keen on the SNP but I have a lot of respect for Sturgeon as a politician.

TSS, I KNOW! I can't help thinking that Sturgeon is swinging into action this soon partly to underscore the difference between her action and the Westminster lot's bumbling. She's clever.

This is one of my biggest worries too : It also now appears there are also few people who have the experience to negotiate trade deals. It is something where are expertise is limited because the EU did it for us so don't expect very much being done very quickly. No-one thought about this.

Plus, my job involves lots of negotiating of agreements. It is never fun trying to negotiate when you are the weaker/more desperate party. Highly unlikely we will get a good deal even when they are done.

I too think Boris was playing a game and events have come to bite him on the bum, big time. Even if he did become PM and seek a second Referendum, to deliver a Remain win he would need to win over a lot of disaffected Labour voters. I don't see that he is the man for that. I don't know who would be.

I truly believe, Boris was - and remains - a born to rule, consensus Tory politician.

I also believe he chose - in principle - finally and reluctantly but necessarily - to vote Leave.

I honestly think he did the right thing and should be given some credit for that.