Very basic Mumsnet EU Referendum Poll (How will you vote?)- either say "in", "out" or "undecided" in your reply.

[evilcherub]

Out

In

In

The degradation of what passes for political discourse in this country should be a concern to us all.

You are on a different Mumsnet to me then Pingu. MN is left wing - research the threads before the last General election. Not a conservative fan in sight - well maybe one in a hundred.

The Shy Tory is a well known phenomenon.

Hence why all the opinion polls were so wrong at the last election.

Just because they don't come out waving a blue flag, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Its often a social position thing - either through class, an upbringing not to announce your political leaning or an age thing.

I do think that parts of the left have been quite intimidating in recent years. Whether this is through frustration or outright militancy, I don't know. I do think there are people who are afraid or do not feel able to adequately vocalise their beliefs in the face of this though.

I always say, listen to the silence as much as listen to those who shout the loudest. The silence is as important and as telling. Why is there a silence?

IN

In.

Although I find myself bemused but slightly heartened by the people saying they feel that the UK government democratically represents them.

Really? I don't think they represent anything apart from their big donors, and base political expediency. (Going back all my life, so not aimed at any particular party)

red

I agree

It was very unpleasant in mumsnet around the election, no wonder tories kept their heads down on here at least

To me it's about whether we want Britain's destiny decided democratically in the UK - or in Brussels where we only have a one-twenty eighth share of the vote.

I've had this argument with someone recently.

I do think even that's a fallacy.

In terms of democracy, I don't think we even gain domestically democratically. The new future and structure of UK politics will be on an agenda written by the most right wing elements of our political system, let by Boris who made a big speech about how 'greed is good' a couple of years ago. (Google it)

Boris has no interest in enfranchising anyone. Quite the opposite.

We may loose sovereignty through Europe, but its also a check on power here too. (we need a few of those for a well balanced democracy - the media is another but that's not doing great at the moment either) And one 28th vote is better than no vote at all.

Its a question of picking which is the lesser evil rather than a choice between better democracy and more representation.

Neither option offer that promise in reality.

In

In

red I also agree.
Wanting to leave the EU you get 'racist' thrown at you...when it is about so much more than immigration.
boulevard I also agree ...but really don't undervalue democracy. Just being in one gives you protection. If a party stood up and said to ease pressure on the NHS we are going to limit GP attendance to 3 per year any more than that you have to go private or we will kill everyone over the age of 80 etc they wouldn't be elected. Just the fact they are dependent on votes limits their actions.

Out

red we do have the House of Lords in the UK - as a check. And if a vote is overturned by the House of Lords it gives it more publicity - so more of the public become aware and outrage. In Brussels we don't have that.

O

*out

(Better democracy and representation is only going to be found through more 'ordinary' people taking the plunge either as independents or through joining political parties.

The trouble is few people want to take on that responsibility for what ever reason. There is also a growing gap between how people communicate, particularly between generations. Younger people express their politics through social media and have more expectations of instance responses and acknowledgement. Politics is rather slower moving and still a complete dinosaur and in fairness MPs don't have the time and ability to sit on FB or twitter all day long taking note. What with being human beings, and if you want proper representation, you want them to still have a life outside politics.

Instead politicans are still in the age of formal letters or maybe email if you are lucky. Which younger people just don't do or get why its important.

The argument that people don't know who their MEP is, is a bit of a red herring, as often the same people complaining about this, also don't know who their local councillors are either. It comes down to not wanting to engage as much as politicans not engaging.

I do understand why people don't want to get involved. There are a hundred and one reasons (of which I am also guilty) - some practical, some personal. But this is what needs to change to get better democracy.

No political system is ideal. All systems have their flaws. Our best hope for representation comes from us rather than changing that system though. Politcal reform isn't a magic solution it appears.

It all comes down to taking responsibility.

Slightly off topic, but I do think its relevant to the wider debate too.

The new future and structure of UK politics will be on an agenda written by the most right wing elements of our political system

Unlikely, as the Tories will probably be voted out before long, at one of our regular general elections. The British population doesn't go for extremes in politics and when a party goes too far from the centre ground, they tend to be voted out.

I think people voted Tory last time so they could get an EU referendum; the Tories were the only party offering it. It doesn't mean they're usually Tory voters.

I can't see any good reason for our UK laws to be steadily superceded by laws in which we only have a tiny say. I think we need to concentrate on our own country, rather than have our voice diluted so much by the EU that effectively it's hardly heard.

Undecided because I don't bloody understand any of it

I do think that parts of the left have been quite intimidating in recent years. Whether this is through frustration or outright militancy, I don't know. I do think there are people who are afraid or do not feel able to adequately vocalise their beliefs in the face of this though.

The right have most of the press. The Tories have a slick PR machine (hello Lynton!). It has been the right wing press that have been manipulating the political discourse in this country. It is the right who have been screaming about immigration and the EU for years. The referendum is "their" issue. Personally I'd like a more intelligent, pragmatic and reasoned political debate on all issues but its never going to happen when the press shout the loudest and the public inevitable march to orders.

In

In Brussels we don't have that.

I'd argue the other 'chamber' in the EU was each individual government though.

And one 28th vote is better than no vote at all.

Sorry Red..... I don't quite get your meaning? A choice between a one-twenty eighth share of the vote or no vote at all....when did that happen?

In

Unlikely, as the Tories will probably be voted out before long, at one of our regular general elections.

Unfortunately very unlikely until at least 2025 (and I say that as a Labour Party member)

Unlikely, as the Tories will probably be voted out before long, at one of our regular general elections. The British population doesn't go for extremes in politics and when a party goes too far from the centre ground, they tend to be voted out.

You are completely right, but who is currently offering this centre ground though?

Not Corbyn. (And I do think Corbyn offers some good things. He's just not credible enough as an alternative and is too far to the left to those who are swing voters and hold the balance of power)

And therein lies the problem. I do think the current government being voted out is further away than you think, especially if BoJo gets the top job and we have to deal with the cult of his personality at a General Election.