The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

I think the UK could do more in terms of taking a fair share of refugees rather than just leaving it to her European neighbours to deal with.
The refugee crisis is a completely different kettle of fish to free movement of EEA citizens, and if you look at the figures, it's only a very small proportion of people who want to come here.

The way how you speak about migrants as criminals and bringers of disease clearly shows where you stand though, so it's probably pointless to discuss further with you.

None of this has anything to do with the referendum, though, unless it is the xenophobic vote you're after ;-)

I'm not talking about refugees, I agree the UK along with other EU nations should be doing more. I'm talking about the 2000 odd economic migrants currently arriving daily in Italy, who have themselves admitted they are economic migrants. Many already here are commiting crimes, that is fact, many do have physical and mental health issues, that is fact.

It is because of these economic migrants and their behaviour that genuine refugees are now finding borders closed is it not?

Lurked101

"I think a lot of the issues that have forced this situation are to do with immigration. A large number of polls have said that the publics largest concern with the EU is to do with immigration, just take a look at any thread on here that talks about the EU and see how quickly it goes into the immigration debate. "

It also has a lot to do with Camerons prospects of winning a majority in the last election. Love them or hate them, UKIP brought to the fore the whole subject of the EU and how it has its disadvantages that affect our every day lives.

Cameron had to promise to give the electorate a vote otherwise he risked loosing too many votes to UKIP. I dare say UKIP would have got more votes than they did, had Cameron done what Milliband did and disregard the idea that the public were entitled to a referendum on the EU.

With the slew of "information" from Cameron and Osborne trying to scare us into staying, they appear desperate and full of doom and gloom if we exit, whereas the out campaign seem passionate, patriotic and enthusiastic about the future if we leave.

the out campaign seem passionate, patriotic and enthusiastic about the future if we leave.

Yes, that's how I feel

Empires can fall from "overstretch." If Britain, on the far Western border spins off; it won't be the cause of the EU's downfall, just another symptom.

When I was a kid, I wondered: if Rome was so great, why did it end? And when did it end? And what made it end? Adults had no firm answers. It was sort of a mish-mash of getting bigger and bigger and being unable to maintain control, while barbarian hordes came from the North in greater numbers than they could cope with. It faded away and did a slow motion collapse.

Sound familiar?

Looking inagain
Well quite.

Lurked101

The EU is a shrinking market for the UK. Over the last decade, the EU has become less important to UK exporters, with exports of goods and services to the EU falling from 54% of the total in 2006 to 44% today

Not true, and a blatant misrepresentation of the statistics, the reasons the prortion of trade has fallen is not because the nominal figure has fallen, in fact it has grown, but trade with other countries because of glolbailsation (and EU trade deals) has grown therefore making the EU a smaller % of over all trade.

Come on Lurked, the original poster was correct. The percentage of trade has reduced because markets other than the EU are expanding and therefore the EU becomes less significant.

As I countered someone else before, if the EU economy is the same as it was in 1980 and other markets are getting bigger, it means the EU is getting smaller by comparison. So it is true, we are getting tied to a shrinking violet. Whats the sense in that? Look at the Chinese and Asian market places, money is flowing from west to east. Who is printing money because they are so broke US, EU and UK and who is stocking up on gold, China and Asia. They are the places we should be focusing on. Europe is decaying and crumbing under the weight if its unpayable debt mountain. Even the USA is becoming a sad case (because of its massive debt) just wait until the Dollar loses its Reserve Currency Status. The EU is on the same trajectory. The southern states are basket cases because the Euro is too expensive for their economy. If it wasn't for the UK, Germany and France, the EU would be a basket case. And just to make it more of a one, we welcome Turkey.

Osborne should also be honest about how poor we will end up with even more poor counties joining the EU.With ever more poor countries joining the EU, that just makes us poorer too. So I would rather be poorer out of that sick club than poorer within in it.

Bronze Bust Mon April 16 20 20 08 post
Well put.

Lurked101
Didn't say it was racist. How do disntinguish on no value to the economy? So you'd get rid of the 14% that claim working tax credits?

No to getting rid of anybody. Working tax credits is due to the failure of our country to be efficient enough to ensure basic workers have a decent wage and is not the same argument that I make below. We have an excess of labour that is not utilised or trained to the needs of the county's industrial needs.Not going to expand on that here.

"How do disntinguish on no value to the economy"

If we have a job vacancy that cannot be filled by a UK resident, then look overseas and offer the job to the best applicant from any of the other 200 odd countries, not just the EU bloc.

So economically, any migrant should bring with them sufficient money to look after themselves or be able to start a business that will enable them to support themselves and hopefully employ even more UK residents. Otherwise, how are they useful to the UK economy?

It gets even more complicated than that. If they start businesses that do not make things or provide a services that is exported eg a cornershop, then all they are doing is diluting an existing market sector. More supply with no increase in demand. This has the effect of depressing the earnings for each participant of that sector and on balance everyone in that sector ends up a bit poorer. Because there is no extra money being generated (all that is happening is the same money is flowing differently) but more people to house and educate, where does the money come from to build the houses and schools to accommodate these extra people?

Our country only gets richer when we export goods and services.

Importing labour without a commensurate amount of imported money makes the country poorer.

That's why most sane countries have immigration controls. it isn't because they are racist xenophobes, its because it makes economic sense.

Lurkeed101

Bronze, we don't have 100% chance to vote out the UK parliament, only 24% of the electorate voted tory. The democracy point is an over simplifcation and one that is used to try to influence people.

Yes we do because 100% of the electorate could all vote the same way and give 100% representation in our Parliament to one of the parties. I know it wont happen but it could.

In the EU, even if 100% of our MEPs vote in favour of a proposal, they can still lose by a country mile because they only have the ability to vote for 9.7% of the representation. The other 90.3% is decided by the rest. So in many cases, it would not matter if our MEPs didn't turn up because if 50% of the others vote for a proposal, our MEPs may as well go for drink in the local pub because it wont matter a fig how they vote. They could all vote against every single proposal for ever and not win once.

I understand the flaw in our electoral system but we as UK voters in the UK elections have much more ability to unseat an unruly Government if we really wanted to. We cannot do that in the EU.

Itinerary

Very good.

Thank you for clarify and explaining to us the EU is NOT what it seems.

I for one am not surprised as you can tell from my posts.

Well-informed posts from Bronze Our country only gets richer when we export goods and services.

Importing labour without a commensurate amount of imported money makes the country poorer.

Why cant George Osborne grasp the above? It is quite straight-forward to me and I'm an economically illiterate Brexiter according to our Chancellor.

stilllovingmysleep

We can participate hopefully in changing the EU from within. (Maybe I'm optimistic but that's my view).
(See Daisy? I say 'we' rather than 'you'.).

The EU doesn't give a stuff about the UK. In any event, our 9.7% representation could vote from now until eternity of all sorts of proposals for change and never win. Why, because the rest of the MEPs can vote us down every single time and there is nothing we can do about. EU reform that suits the UK is a pipe dream.

Just started on BBC2 - Newsnight, with a debate on the EU and the economy

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b078c9g6

I've come back to delete my account but I must say that this thread has been hilarious.

The brexit crowd paint the EU as some shadowy institution with nefariouis goals that is wholy bad for the UK, and once released the UK will flourish in the uplit sun of freedom, democracy and free trade.

Despite all the points to the contary, to those from the CBI, SSMT, Pharmaceutical industry, HSBC, PWC, The Treasury, Barrack Obama, the Government offical opion, the Opposition offical oppinion, The Liberal Democrats official opnion, the SNP, 100 FTSE 250 executives, the BOE, UCL, IMF, Oxford University, the LSE, the Economist and numerous others. All have either pointed out that the relationship is beneficial or that there are significant risks to UK exit.

From other countries in the EU that say the dreamed up "free trade agreements" will not be agreed.

Yet you say that all of these sources have vested interests and are seeking to do harm to the UK. All the while unironically linking to quoutes from Daniel Hannan, the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Daily Telegraph and Voteleave.

Hannan btw, does wilfully misread the EU's size of economy in world terms, because it is larger in constant and current prices, but smaller in world terms because of exponential growth elsewhere in the world. What was China like in 1980? If the EU is so unimportant Bronze's post about the UK, EU and US not printing money like China also shows a massive misunderstanding about what has driven Chinese economic growth since 2008 ( Government borrowing and spending on infrastructure) and that how unsure economists are about the real state of the Chinese economy, I would encourage watching Robert Peston's thing on it (oh, but he'll have a vested interest too won't he?)

You post about scaremongering yet are constantly bleating on about more immigration, its costs to the UK etc, about democracy (whilst wilfully misunderstanding how democratic this country is and the changes the current government are making to that). About rapes and assaults caused by immigrants, refugees actually, but hey what's a little conflation between friends. About the millions of potential new entrants just waiting to flock here to our wonderful country (just like the millions of Romanians).

You jump up and down about TTIP, not because it really worries you or you understand it but because you think it demonstrates your argument, it doesn't. There are reasons to be concerned but far more to be concerned

Its actually quite funny that you rally and encourage each other whilst wilfully ignoring any of the other information posted here, and you still come out with "Trade with Europe yes, ruled by Europe, no". The fact that you think the UK will "enforce a trade deal" and also completely misunderstand the 5 million jobs over 400 and something million people is a far smaller percentage than the 3 million or so that are at risk here.

The fact that you post about your children's futures being safer when actually you are about to do long term economic damage to us all for the sake of your emotive veiws.

Bronze's constants attempts to appear to be reasonable whilst maintaing a stance which is emotive, illogical, relies on flights of fancy regarding trade, and in certain post verges on xenephobia (nice reference to immigrants opening corner shops there, well done indeed).

Posting about patriotism, when it's actually nationalism.

The attempt to goad me into making a post which has gone on all day, and I just looked at this.

All of it side splittingly funny, you keep backing each other up as much as you want, I know I can't change your views but hey, nor can anyone else.

Maybe if you make sure those tin foil hats are firmly on, your eyes won't swivvle eh?

Good night one and all xx

Hover

"There's an idea, maybe the xenophobes could run an advertising campaign throughout the EU saying, "Don't come to the UK, our government can't be arsed to build enough schools for your children"

Who is going to pay for all these schools, hospitals and houses that the immigrants need? It isn't a case of being, in your vernacular, "arsed", it's matter of who's paying for it

Well please can you explain to everyone here, where is the money going to come from?

Hover

But Bronze, why do you think there's the remotest chance that we'll get a better version of TTIP outside the EU? The US have already said that their normal method of negotiating is to fax their terms through and expect them to be signed and returned.

If we are out, at least we'll have 100% representation and 100% chance of negotiating it and 100% of our MPs will be negotiating for 100% benefit of the UK's interests.

From our corner of the EU table, we'll have 9.7% representation and 9.7% chance of negotiating it and 100% of our MPs will be negotiating for 9.7% benefit of the UK's interests.

Which of the above gives us the best opportunity of negotiation a deal that suits us?

It won't let me delete, can anyone tell me why? I go to the delete registration page but it just directs me to the front page?

Oh and this:

"If we are out, at least we'll have 100% representation and 100% chance of negotiating it and 100% of our MPs will be negotiating for 100% benefit of the UK's interests."

With a far weaker negotiating point (the EU as a whole is by far the biggest trading partner, and the largest source of FDI even without the UK) and a far higher chance of any deal being far more beneficial to the US that it is to the UK. You see that right there, one of your flights of fancy on trade, you don't understand it at all do you?

widow"

I don't live in an ivory tower but it has been shown and shown again that migrants by and large contribute more than they take, no matter how much some people want to blame all of society's ills on them."

This is more rot put out by the politically correct class.

It is NOT the fault of the migrants. It is the fault of the idiotic politicians that enable unchecked migration to occur. The labour party are still apologising for their rank incompetent immigration policy (not that they could have stopped EU migrants).

I don't blame the migrants at all. If I find a nice firstworld country much wealthier than the UK, that had unchecked immigration, where I would be able to displace a local employee and better my life, I might just to that. Can you think of country stupid enough to enable that?

Lets be honest if an immigrant with foreign qualifications and English as a second language can take your job, you were never really in the running in the first place were you?

Hover

They do, but then so did Don Quixote...

Have you read George Orwell's 1984? Had i read that book 60 years ago, I might think it rather fanciful. Having read it recently, it chills me.

If you can't see the EU for what it is, then you have something called normalcy bias.

There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See