The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

Jeanniejampots80

We know that the EU doesn't really give a stuff about the UK, another reason not to be in political bed with them. However, they do like our subscriptions - they come in handy.

Lurked101

"See, I'm right about people only posting on stuff that they agree with. Daisy you agree with Anna for her "fears" over immigration, but have no fears of the economic impact of brexit on your children?

Immigration might be on threat but a period of recession and stagnation, falling FDI and loss of international competitiveness is going to be far worse for all of our children."

It depends on your priority, money in exchange for liberty and freedom. I rather be poorer and freer.

I'd also like my daughters to be able to roam the streets of the UK wearing what they like without being told they need to dress up, like the Germans recommended their women after Cologne.

WidowWadman

"If Europeans indeed are welcome, why are Brexiteers campaign on getting rid of that very right? Anything published by pro Brexit anti migrant voices indicates that anyone would be welcome who isn't born here or wealthy."

No. What is being said that no one EU or non EU citizen should not have the right to move to the UK with out a job offer or the ability to looks after themselves.. This is a policy that most (sane) nations adopt. Try and get into the USA or Australia with no job offer or no money. The reason that they have these systems is that there is no point in a foreign worker applying for a job in the UK when there are sufficient here already. The imported worker is not a benefit to the UK country because they simply displace an existing worker that then has to be paid for by the tax payer to remain (economically) idle.

I rather be poorer and freer.

Hear hear.

You can't put a price on democracy.

about the immigration problem, I agree that there are fair reasons to be concerned. While immigration as a whole benefits the UK economy, British low-skilled workers also pay a price in terms of pay and available work.

Brexit arguments are very good at pointing this out. They are much less good, however, at showing that the situation would be any better if Britain left the EU, because this also comes with another set of issue that would likely also harm low-skilled British workers. Two likely effects of Brexit are a hit on economic growth (not good for unemployment) and a hit on wages for Britain to be more competitive outside the EU. Not to mention the loss of workers' rights, also in the name of competitiveness.

So once again, Brexit is being touted as a miracle solution, when really it just replaces a set of problem with another set of different, and possibly worse, problems.

I rather be poorer and freer.

Well, that's fair enough. I would dispute that you'd be significantly freer after Brexit, but overall if you think that recovering full sovereignty is worth a significant economic recession, then I can't argue with that. (I'm not trying to be sneery here, I actually do think it's fair enough, although I disagree.)

hello everyone, I am from russia originally. I can tell you that EU is good for everyone but not United Kingdom. True.

UK wonderful place, I love it here but more good for foreign people. I married English man, we have children and so i am British. Many people from outside Eu do this, but my marriage is very happy and we are together.

Some people here from campaign for Britain-stronger-in-Europe, I see this. Why do you want to kill your country like this.

How ling has Turkey been a candidate for? 20 years? 30?

Talks started 2005, 11 years.

Ruslana
I think you are for us Leaving?

The EU has made Turkish an official EU language ,I imagine they are gearing up for interpreters in the EU Parliament........!

Bronze Bust: Mon 18thApril 16 1531:32 post
Exactly,succinctly and well said.

Daisy, If Turkey is given permission to come and go into Europe, then Albania (OMG) No. You will not know this but I know that when West Germany took back East Germany, although language same the culture very very different. It was big problem for many years to get east german people to show initiative. Not their fault because thinking for yourself in work was never necessary. Germany took a very serious financial hit for years.

But at least the men from East germany were quiet and ok because they never follow, touch, rape women like in Cologne and Salzburg and many places in January. My friend in Vienna had narrow escape.

This is the new EU democracy. I have just spotted headline today. I think Dutch want to do second referendum re ukraine.

"BRUSSELS has effectively banned Dutch MPs from discussing their country's historic referendum result because it is exposing the EU's undemocratic core and boosting calls for a Brexit."

Ruslana
Thankyou for clarifying your stance and that you want to Leave the EU.
Your feelings certainly sum up how many females feel in this country.
I as a female and Mother certainly feel afraid that if we do not vote to Leave we will face serious problems.

Ruslana
Sorry I did not see your other post.
Yes to ignore the Dutch vote is not Democratic.
Democracy is essential,many sadly fought and died for that.

Not only have the EU banned Dutch MP's from discussing the result, they are completely ignoring the result and the wishes of the Dutch and continuing with their deal with the Ukraine. That is not democracy, that is oligarchy. Will they ignore the wishes of the UK citizens too?

The Hibernator,
The Dutch situation says it all.
This is about Democracy,this is about personal freedom.
We must wake up and get out/ leave this mess.

I think maybe the world divides into two main camps over many things. There are people who want to go it alone, and those who think that it is best to be part of a gang.

When you are a gang member you actually have no control over your destiny, because decisions are taken by the higher echelon.

You feel very protected because your brothers will always have your back, they will fight on your behalf, and avenge you if necessary.
But this comes at a price, which is do not ask difficult questions. And there always comes a point in a gang when one member is vehemently opposed to a plan of action; he has two options, overcome his distaste and carry on, or leave the gang.

The gang will not let you leave easily because you are a good operative and your contribution cannot easily be replaced. That's when the threats begin. If you leave (in a real gang the threats would be of violence) but the Eu does not have to do much because those that fear walking alone bring fear into themselves.

The Eu wants to bulk itself up to show its might and to eventually become a single governed territory. The names of ex-countries and cities will remain but only for geographical location.

Excellent analogy Ruslana.

Ruslana
What a brilliant analogy.
I certainly see your point.
Bravo,well said.

Cutthewaffle I said that if instead of having the right to free movement I would have had been subject to the immigration rules non EEA citizens are currently subject to, and which you would like to see extended to EEA citizens, I could have never moved here and build my life with my husband. Neither under tier 2 regs, as back then I didn't have any qualifications nor under spousal regs, as back then he didn't earn enough.

Neither of these applied to me, and so - luckily for us - I could settle here without problems.

The reason why I brought my personal example up is, that whenever anybody says or writes people who aren't independently wealthy or hold certain qualifications should not be allowed to build a life away from the place they were born, they tell me that I shouldn't have come here, and have wrongly taken resources/jobs that I shouldn't have and didn't deserve.

I'm against taking the same opportunities I had away from those who come after me, as there is no evidence that the reciprocal agreement that grants freedom of movement is to the detriment of anyone.

I'm against taking the same opportunities I had away from those who come after me, as there is no evidence that the reciprocal agreement that grants freedom of movement is to the detriment of anyone.

But you're OK with those born outwith EU member states not having the same opportunities?

And seriously, no evidence? EU migration has no impact whatsoever on UK nationals? Do you live in an ivory tower then?

Cutthewaffle ====== she was not able to get a 'spousal visa' for her husband-to-be. I do not understand why this was not granted to you without problem, and why it was only successful when you moved to GB and applied from here? I thought the entry rules for spouses was the same in all EU countries.

Maybe I know reason. Years ago I read or was told that spouse visa law is not expressed equally by all Eu countries. It may have changed now but some time back some Eu countries favoured certain non-European countries for spouse. Example -- from Britain much easier to get spouse visa if spouse coming from ex-Commonwealth country such as India, Australia. I think this is reason.

Lurked101

"Then we come to where this gets really complicated, for every 10% increase in unskilled labour we get a 2% fall in unskilled wage rates. So a decrease in immigration would put wages up. On the face of this, its a good thing. However, this would lead to rising costs for British businesses, reducing international competitiveness and putting jobs at risk."

This analysis is distorted by the fact that low paid workers the UK as so badly paid, the taxpayer has to subside their wages. I find it obscene that there is a justification for driving down workers wages still further. All that will happen is the taxpayer (middle class) will pick up the tab.. The only people that truly benefit from this scheme are the owners of corporations (who also don't pay much tax either) and surprise, surprise benefit from the EU.

All the free movement of labour does is make the system a level playing field so that none of the low paid workers in the EU can earn enough to feed themselves. Spreading the poverty equally among everyone.

I cannot believe that a person on the minimum wage is a net contributor when they receive more in in work benefit than they pay in tax. At this level, there is little spend for luxury goods and most of their income will go on rent and food which are zero rated for VAT. This is before they send their children to school, walk on the pavements and use the parks. I don't begrudge them their use of the system but to to say they are net contributors is a stretch too far.

The only way our country gets richer is by exporting goods and services goods and thus importing money. So to illustrate this point, if 100,000 people came to the UK and setup car hire businesses that hired cars to other UK residents, there is no export activity associated with this activity so the country will not get richer. However, what is does do is introduce competition into the sector that makes everyone a little worse off. Supply and demand. Then we'll need houses, schools and doctors for these newly arrived 100,000 people. Where does the money come from to finance this? It is the same effect that an over supply to labour has.

What this country needs to do is spend the billions we send the EU investing to make the UK more competitive and encouraging business, startups and innovation for export.

I don't live in an ivory tower but it has been shown and shown again that migrants by and large contribute more than they take, no matter how much some people want to blame all of society's ills on them.

The difference between EEA and non-EEA migration is that the former is based on reciprocal agreements between member states. I wouldn't have an issue if similar arrangements would be made with other states. I don't agree with the arbitrary earnings thresholds the government have introduced (by the backdoor by way of statutory instrument, so much for parliamentary sovereignty) either.