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Ethical dilemmas

Do I tell?

253 replies

StarryCole · 29/05/2012 00:32

I have a moral dilemma. Please bear with me as I really need your strength to do the right thing. Last summer. We were at my PIL's house. Only family there and what I mean by this is my husband's parents and his siblings only. Summer BBQ. I felt it a safe environment. My son, aged 3.5, is very active, likes to run around the house and garden and playing with various members of family. I didn't think he was in any danger. I thought I knew my husband's family well, we had been together 8 years. I thought it was safe.

My husband's 15 year old brother, I will call him Alan, exposed himself to my son, It was an opportunist moment. My son alone in Alan's bedroom for a brief time.
We were all downstairs doing the family thing, it did cross my mind where my son was but I didn't think anything of it. Nor did my husband, whose brother it was. Imagine your son or daughter with your brother or sister, together playing alone in a room for the briefest of moments?.

Later on, my son told me Uncle Alan sat him on his bed. Uncle Alan pulled his trousers and underpants and exposed himself. My son told me this in enough detail and I was utterly shocked. It was enough for me to call the police.

Much emotional turmoil between myself, my husband and his parents. It was I that instigated the involvement with the police. Alan's parents were reluctant and very protective. They still are.

Co-incidentally, Alan was pulled up by the police on an seperate issue, at about the same time. The police was monitoring him because he was cruising websites of a NAPPY fetish nature and participating in 'chats' online. He came to the attention of the police as in one of the chats, Alan mentioned he had a toddler nephew, my son. My son was wearing nappies at the time. Till this day, I do not know the contents of the chats nor the actual sites he was on. I can only guess....

The police let Alan off with the privisio he does therapy. Alan being only 15 at the time, his mental state..the risks and being from a supportive home. The police do not view Alan as dangerous. Alan is back at school and living at home.

Fast forward 1 year to today, and my husband's other brother Roger (brother to Alan as well) and his wife announced they are expecting their first child.

My PIL's had sworn us to secrecy. Although we never promised to keep quiet if another member of the family had a child. It is both I and my husband's moral thinking, Roger and his wife ought to be told, to empower them to protect their child.

My PILs, particularly, my FIL has threatened me that if I said anything, 'a big thing would come between us' i.e., I would be ousted in their eyes. They don't deem Alan as dangerous and they don't want any 'trouble' least all by me, least of all as Alan is 'sitting his exams at the moment'. They are being very threatening and we had a heated and serious disagreement. They are extremely protective of Alan, being young impressionable and probably prone to depression.
Any mention of my son and I get 'he'll not remember in a few years', 'nothing worse happened, he's hardly been affected'.

I believe Roger and his wife ought to know for the right reasons. As a parent first and foremost and for the safety of their child. Roger and his wife are good people, very responsible. I'm sure they would understand and be mature about it, like we have been. Alan is a 'good boy' in every other respect and is taking therapy.

Both myself and my husband are being pressured and threatened by my ILs. I know my PILs will never forgive me in particular - even if I said and did nothing 'being the woman/wife'.

Please, let me know your views. What would you do? And imagine this in your own family. Your son/daughter and brother or sister.

Thank you.

OP posts:
happy2bhomely · 31/05/2012 13:27

I'm trying to understand, but failing.

I don't understand Alan at all. What he did to your son was unforgivable. I would suspect that it was not an isolated incident. You have no way of knowing if there have been other incidents with your son when he was younger and just the thought of that would be enough to give me nightmares.

Unfortunately your PIL are willing to put Alan before their grandchildren. Based on this, I would refuse to ever leave them responsible for my children. EVER.

I would assume that there are many things you don't know about this family. I would be keeping my children away from all of them until there was some honest, open communication.

Without a doubt I would be telling my SIL why I was keeping my child away from Alan.
Without a doubt I would have informed the police.
Without a doubt I would have informed social services.
I am shocked that you would even consider keeping this secret, but I suppose this is how abuse works.

Alan is almost certainly a risk to children. You have a duty to protect any children who might come into contact with him. I would do that with or without my Husbands support.

MrsSquirrel · 31/05/2012 13:41

I'm not so sure about that soso. Just because no-one has the right to know and someone is presumed innocent until provent guilty, does not mean that it would be an offence for Starry to tell her sil about what happened to her ds.

anotherdollar · 31/05/2012 16:56

DH - to you, yes you - if you here - Can't even believe you would even try and withhold such massive info man. And the pressure your girl is getting from ya peeps is not on. Give her a break and man up.

Cut the bullshit crap and excuses you trying to rationalize about your bro. He's gonna be fine and if he's not and he's gonna pop himself, then YOU need to call make that call to the Socials or whatever. WAIT - You need to ask your girl or your peeps to do that first don't you??

If you were my bro I would pulp you - if risked MY child for even one day by not telling me. Where's the fucking family loyalty there I ask you?

SweetGrapes · 31/05/2012 20:38

Have had this thread going round in my head all day. Just re-read the OP and once more am shocked at the cavalier attitude of your DH.
Your PIL I can understand - do not condone - but they are being true to form in trying to cover up at any cost. Maybe some history of abuse, maybe family name, maybe social stigma. God know what they are thinking but this is a very common approach. Which simply enables the perpetrator to carry on. Very wrong - but sadly very common.
But your dh?? Wtaf is he thinking?

fivegomadindorset · 31/05/2012 21:08

I am not sure \i could stay married to a man who could condone not telling his OWN BROTHER about the potential danger they would be putting their child through. You can be sure that the police are keeping a very close eye on Alan having now been flagged up in two incidences.

Xmasbaby11 · 31/05/2012 21:22

Yes, tell them. I know it can't be easy to break such awful news about someone they love, and I'm sure you don't want to relive it, but the rest of the family has a right to know.

Bletchley · 31/05/2012 21:34

You obviously must tell them. But as the baby isn't due for months and it will be seen as especially inflammatory by your PIL if you do so during the boy's exams, I don't see why you can't wait a few weeks. It makes no difference.

Tattyhead78 · 31/05/2012 21:39

What is wrong with being socially acceptable? Your FIL's view sounds screwed up and the kind of behaviour exhibited by Alan has probably been learned from him.

LowKey · 31/05/2012 22:35

I believe purely on the basis of a child?s protection and everything else comes after. That?s means looking through a child?s eyes and thinking through a child?s mind and the impact they may have when they come across certain things in life.

This is not to say I don?t care about Alan and his family but if Alan actually does do this sort of thing again (am stressing here only if, and not when) to Roger?s new born child (or anybody else) then in the long run you will bear the brunt knowing you could of done something to prevent this, even if it?s just a matter of words.

You should never have listened to Alan?s parent in terms of being quiet. This is a very serious offence and if he was 1 year older at the age of 16 then the police could have made severe punishments.

There will be a time when perhaps we can get pass Alan?s wrongdoing but now, you must address this for the safety and wellbeing of others. I know it can be very hard when Alan?s parents are on your case but you must block them out as much as you can.

Regardless of what other people think of you, it is better to be cautious then be sorry.

ButtonBoo · 01/06/2012 14:31

You've got to tell them. If it was the other way round, you'd want to know im sure. Explain exactly what you've said here - you've explained in a mature and rational way. I cannot understand for the life of me why your PILs would think it ok not to tell Roger, although I guess they consider Alans behaviour to be 'in the past'. That being said, in my opinion, even if it stays in the past, I'd want to know.

You only have to think, as awful as it is, if something more serious had happened with your child and you found out that something similar had happened before and you weren't told and your resentment and anger towards those not telling you.

forestcool · 05/06/2012 11:34

I think it is your duty to tell. I would definitely want to know if I was in her position. This has affected your son, and by warning her, you will prevent the same thing happening to her child (which let's face it, there is a high probability of it happening again). As a parent, I think you owe it to the other parents, and also to the child. This kind of thing can have long lasting, damaging effects on their life and the future relationships for that child.

Without a doubt you need to warn them. Imagine if they find out anyway, down the line, come to you to talk about it, and you say you already knew! How would they feel then.... and you know you would have been wrong in not telling them.

This is not normal behaviour, and Alan needs help. Until then, the people around him need to know in order to prevent this from happening again. This will also be helping Alan in the long-run.

StarryCole · 06/06/2012 22:12

I've done a ton of research on respected/authoritative as well as unauthoritative resources on peodophilia, infantilsm, Adult baby/diaper lover fetishes, speaking with mental health consultants and criminal barristers. I've even dialogued with TEENAGE nappy fetish lovers on internet forums myself. These are completely sane normal kids, who do really well at school but recognise they have a fetish side of them that is outside what we deem as the 'norm'.

Somewhat surprisingly (or not) I've learnt that there is a CLEAR distinction between nappy /adult baby fetishes vs peodophilia. These fetish lovers are bound by a strong moral compass as we are when it comes to children. They don't dream of acting out on children and they don't fantasise about being sexual with children (note - from those in the forum I have been speaking with). This gets deep but from what I understand, there's a play of regression, acting as an infant/child, being dominated and feelings of security associated with nappies or being a child rather than being sexual WITH a child. nappy /adult baby fetishes vs peodophilia - neither are seen by the pros as mental illnesses (and there is no cure).

Which then begs a serious red flag about my BIL Alan doesn't it? I guess I was trying to find reasons on why he is the way he is but in the end, only Alan can answer this.

Starrycole.

OP posts:
StarryCole · 06/06/2012 22:15

I just wanted to let you know I'll be posting an update over the coming weeks and that I hadn't dissappeared off the face of this earth. I'm really hoping things will be ok and my PILs can speak to me again without going bananas!

I'm due to meet my PIL (I'm being summoned for a meeting with my DH), by which time my MIL will also have had a chat Alan's therapist.

I don't see any benefit for me to be at this family meeting personally, all I'm going to get again is verbal abuse about what a bad apple I am and how little respect I have and what right I have to tell her what to do ....blah blah blah. How is it ok to slag me off and blame me for all the trouble and hurt caused when I'm giving her really logical, sensible, rational reasons as to why she should ALSO protect her other children? MIL (not that you would ever read this) - you cannot be there at all times to protect your kids or Alan and I'm not holding a gun to your head, you have at least half a year to get a grip to rationalise this out before your other grandchild is born.

I'm going to this meeting to keep my DH happy and let the MIL vent. Why not? I'd rather her scapegoat me till the goats decide to go home. I'm still not going to change my mind on this or shut the f^ck up.

OP posts:
monkeymoma · 06/06/2012 22:18

my god your DH is okay with you being summoned this way?
I do not understand why you are going? You think you can make a few rational statements to the ILs and they'll suddenly change their mind/behaviour - I genuinely cannot see how anything can be gained by this confrontation!
IMO Alan is not the only bad egg in the family (or close family circle)

ComradeJing · 07/06/2012 05:38

Yes Starry, that really does raise questions about Alan but, tbf, you KNOW Allen is a danger to young children. You have personal proof plus the message from the police wrt them watching him.

Do you really think mil will listen to the therapist if therapist has anything negative to say about Alan? Do you really think mil will accurately repeat any advice or warnings that the therapist gives? I doubt it to both.

At the meeting I think your best bet is to just say you understand their fears but... And then repeat what you've written above about not always being able to protect him, holding a gun, scapegoat etc.

They won't like it, they won't listen and they won't forgive you for doing the right thing but it is the right thing to tell your BIL.

Best wishes.

ImperialBlether · 07/06/2012 15:05

OP, are you not worried that now you are on these sites that you are being monitored? Do you not think it's taking things a bit far, going on such sites and talking to the people on them?

Isn't that EXACTLY how your BIL came to the attention of the police?

I find it disturbing that he was on those sites for months and long enough to be monitored by the police. I don't think you have been told the full story by the ILs. I wouldn't respect any DH who didn't tell his own brother that his baby may be at risk. I wouldn't worry about him leaving you; he should be worrying about you leaving him.

But in any case, get off those sites.

TomblibooTrousers · 07/06/2012 15:17

I'm afraid I haven't read all the replies to your post but frankly don't think I need to. IMO you have an obligation, as an adult with this knowledge, to ensure people are made aware of this information and the baby is protected.
If you or your husband are in any doubt, you only need to look at the many threads about abuse on this website to see the damage it causes.

AmberLeaf · 07/06/2012 15:48

Imperialblether that's what I thought too re the OP going on those sites.

OP why oh why would you do that?

Jux · 07/06/2012 15:52

Good luck, StarryCole.

You are doing the right thing. Why has your dh changed his mind? Do your ILs trust Roger less than they trust your DH? Do they think Roger will make bigger waves, or something?

Perhaps this isn't actually a first offence, and perhaps Roger knows it?

Slambang · 07/06/2012 16:23

Starry
Your research on nappy fetishes etc sounds interesting and I'm prepared to believe that it is not the same as paedophilia.

However Alan exposed himself to DS. That is sexual and it does involve a child. Therefore it is paedophilia.

I think the nappy fetishism bit may be a red herring here.

Sorry dh's family and your dh are being crap over this. Hopefully dh will have the sense in the long run to know deep down you are on his and his family's side and you are doing what's best for everyone.

ImperialBlether · 07/06/2012 16:38

This is one of the problems with the internet, isn't it? I'd bet your BIL started off on boobs.com and then found his way gradually onto those sites. I think this is the problem with the internet at a time when you are developing sexually and you are turned on by just about anything.

If I were your ILs I wouldn't have the internet at all in the house.

RabidAnchovy · 07/06/2012 17:01

I would tell you BIL/SIL and any other parent of any other child that was coming in to contact with this boy.
Please do not be bullied in to keeping quite, how will you feel when he does something to your niece/nephew knowing you knew what he was like and you said nothing.

Your in laws are behaving very badly

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 17:38

I would make a HUGE distinction between the fetish of adults wearing nappies, and adults who get sexual pleasure from infant nappies

I do not see the point of your reasearch, an adult that likes to wear adult sized nappies and be treated like a baby is in no way at all in my mind connected in any way to a man who exposes himself to nappy aged children

I do not believe that the police monitor sites where adults talk about wearing adult sized nappies with other adults.

Police would IMO monitor sites about infants in nappies. Totally totally totally different kettle of fish

Besides, you are trying to "understand" Alan based on the information given by the ILs, which isn't gonna be very accurate is it? so your research is pointless, it wont help it'll just throw up a load of red herrings!

Ratbagcatbag · 07/06/2012 21:15

Starry please read and reread my earlier post, show it to your DH, hell show it to the PILs, but do not let them bully you into thinking you're wrong. I'm 29 and still have the scars for being sexually abused, it could have been stopped if my aunt had of mentioned it. I tried to take my own life because of it. If you want a more personal account so your DH understands it better pm and I will provide it, but whatever you do, make sure your BIL knows what Alan has done.

ImperialBlether · 08/06/2012 10:18

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been thinking about this overnight.

What worries me isn't so much what he did to the OP's child (though god knows that's bad enough) but the months and months he spent thinking about this beforehand.

This isn't someone who just found himself suddenly out of control and acting out of character. For months he had been discussing your child in a chatroom where people were getting off on his descriptions. Do you realise how many people in that sort of chatroom arrange to meet up with someone who has access to a small child?

For him to come to the police's attention, he was clearly a regular member. What he said concerned them.

I think there is no doubt your other BIL should be told - preferably by your DH but if not by you. To be honest, I wouldn't want to be married to someone who disagreed with me on that point.