At home, no capacity and no deputyship - access to money

[roundaboutthehillsareshining]

So my elderly relative is being discharged home with a care package. Fine, it's what she wants and it's the least restrictive option, so it's got to happen this way (even if it falls apart in a few months and she ends up back in hospital for 6 months). Anyway, there's nothing physically wrong and no dementia. Her team believe she has a new functional MH condition, but that can't be diagnosed in hospital and she won't engage with community care, so that's a dead end.

However, it's likely she's going to be found to lack capacity to manage her financial affairs. Her bank account set up is hopelessly complicated (at her choice) and can only be administered in branch, which she's not going to be able to access.

So if she's at home, and unable to access money, how does she pay for food etc until the deputyship comes through? The family can't afford to subsidise her, she isn't eligible for benefits as she's got money coming in, she just can't access it. So what happens? Anyone been in this situation before?

We found social workers are either really, really good and a godsend or really bad and make everything so much harder. There doesn't seem to be any in-between.

@roundaboutthehillsareshining From recent experience, there seems to be a real reluctance to not follow legislation and case law. If you are not PoA they could be taking this literally as your relative not wanting you to know. They certainly did with DM and I am her nearest living relative. Legally they are not obliged to tell any relatives anything unless the person in question has authorised it. Even without capacity.

Good luck.

I'd certainly expect that the close family would be invited to any Best Interests meeting as there's a documented history of family provision of administrative care (visiting, buying shopping, buying appliances, repairing computers/phones, etc) and family being active and engaged in the person's welfare. While our opinions have been sought by SS via emails, the emails don't contain enough information to be able to have an opinion - how can we have an opinion on discharge home with care visits if we've not seen a care plan and don't know what those carers will be doing (given this person requires no direct personal care)? Also the parameters keep changing - first we were told 4 visits a day, then it went to 1 visit, now it's back to 4. And that affects our opinions...

You need to contact the team manager of the social worker. No, they don't have to speak to anyone, you have to repeatedly state that family wish to be included in best interest meetings (unfortunately with no POA social workers don't have to do this either) As she has been assessed as lacking capacity for health and welfare, it would be reasonable for the next of kin to be contacted by the social worker. That person will need to ring the manager and ask for a full conversation. It's unlikely that they will discuss the care plan. My parents were on 4 care visits a day. Because my dad had full capacity, even doing extensive life admin didn't mean that we were kept informed. It was only the care team that chose to work with us when they realised just how much my dad couldn't or wouldn't do.
I too 'speak social worker' as I spent over 15 years as an administrator in various care homes. Please encourage direct family to escalate to management level otherwise it will all just happen and they will wait for it to fail again. The conversation may not change anything, but we found with the current delays in deputyship being granted anyway, the manager was more willing to have family at least in meetings unless the person has already stated they don't consent. If this has happened then there is very little you can do.

Surely it's not unreasonable to know what care will be being provided? Especially as it's already documented that this person requires no physical personal care.

Unfortunately, social workers don't have to tell you/family this. The person receiving the package of care will be told and its then up to them to tell their family etc (bonkers when the person is economical with the truth anyway) my dad and mum didn't have personal care, initially it occurred as my dad was hospitalised and my mum wasnt able to look after herself (paramedics raised a safeguarding) it was supposed to ensure they were safe at home, mum flatly refused anything that she thought was personal cars and at the point the care package started no diagnosis because she flatly refused to go anywhere near a gp.

I want to know what happens following a MCA re finances. Eg is the person’s bank immediately informed that his accounts cannot be operated until and unless an appointeeship or deputyship is notified?

It’s tricky isn’t it, social services have to allow for the possibility of family being abusive. That’s how safeguarding works.

@JanFebAndOnwards nothing happens.
The person who did the assessment provides the person applying for deputyship with the correct paperwork (I can't remember what it's called but there's a form they have to supply which details the outcome of the assessment etc) When the application is received, bank account etc can be 'frozen' if the particular bank choose to do so, but the main understanding is that direct debits would continue to be paid but nothing 'new' will be set up. Currently the applications take 8-9 months. Care home fees don't usually have to be paid during this period as these can be claimed back later. If the application is refused then you'd be notified why. Cost of deputyship is around £800 and there is then a yearly amount charged depending on the size of the persons savings etc

Ah thanks. There won't be a deputyship application in my relative's case - or only in two years' time, which is apparently the length of our LA's waiting list (ie in cases where they are the only body willing to apply), but an appointeeship will hopefully be created, by the Age UK Officer.

The Age UK guy is taking part in the MCA in fact, ie visiting with the SW. So he'll know immediately. Am just wondering if we can still do the person's banking with them the day after the assessment, ie pay the week's bills and monies owed to me due to stuff I've paid for on his behalf this week. And there's a standing order which needs adjusting, ideally. The thing I've been asking them to do for some months is now happening rather quickly.

I don't really know how it's going to work as the income from benefits is going to need to be separated from the income from private pensions, which will also mean creating some kind of new or secondary (?) bank account.

(sorry logged on different device under another UN)

Why does the income need to be separated?

Because appointees can only deal with income from state benefits, nothing else.

(Sorry @roundaboutthehillsareshining am not meaning to hijack your thread.)

My understanding for appointees is that the appointee sets up an account in their (the appointee's) name into which the benefits are paid. The appointee will then be responsible for accounting for that money should the DWP audit in the future. So if you're the appointee and using money from the benefits to pay yourself for necessary expenditure, you should keep your original receipts and then also separately do each transfer from the appointee account to you separately, to the amount of the receipt, for easy reconciliation.

Can she write a cheque to you for x in the interim?

Thanks shining, that’s helpful. However I am not going to be the appointee.

So, in your case, the Age UK would have an account set up into which the state benefits are paid. Anything else would remain in the person's bank account and be classed as savings. If you need to claim money back then you'd send the receipt to the appointee as you wouldn't be able to access the accounts

Not unreasonable, but not lawful if the person hasn't listed anyone specific as PoA or next of kin, or asked the SS team not to share details. Consent to share information is enshrined in law. And best interests decisions are taken based on personal history in my experience. In DMs case she had refused to share information with anyone as her condition deteriorated so we were all kept out of the loop until such time it became a medical emergency. And even then we have no say over what happens to her (although the SS team and clinical team will seek my views). It is even now at the stage where I was advised not to go for Deputyship for Welfare as the Court of Protection is refusing them on the ground that if the person wanted family involved, they would have done it at an earlier stage.

@janfebandonwards just to confirm the MCA form is a CoP3 form if associated with Deputyship. It has to be a separate assessment to the care assessment and is submitted with the Deputyship paperwork. Until that is awarded you can't get access to your relatives money as such. We didn't go down the appointeeship route in the end as DM went into a home so everything will just get sorted at the point we need to. The whole system is geared up to protecting the individual and their assets but in cases where they did not put anything in place it is incredibly difficult to navigate.

Thanks @Lightuptheroom. But that would all need time to happen?

Possibly... certainly professional advocacy (I used to work in administration in care homes) sometimes seems to occur quicker than a relative applying. Speak to the social worker about the time line.

Thanks @Thingamebobwotsit . But it will be an appointeeship at first, due to the waiting list for the LA to apply for deputyship.

Just spoken to the Age UK officer, who is wonderful and going to sort all the problems!!

Anyone here with similar issues: seek your Age UK Appointee Officer out. I assume every county has one although don’t know.

Will update later.

@roundaboutthehillsareshining it is reasonable for family to see the care plan if family support is any part of that care plan - maybe ask if any part of the care plan refers to family providing (or continuing to provide parts of) care?

I suggest this because we got the care plan from the care company (eventually, after the unsafe discharge)… social worker did not share anything in writing with family despite having written in the care plan that family would do ‘all domestic tasks’… care company shared the care plan when we complained - they responded with the care plan to show what was on their list and what they had been told was on ours!

I have so much sympathy for your situation: years of poor decisions, rooms you can’t get into, no diagnosis are all very familiar. Plus the fear of being hated 💐