Parents have no will- complicated estate, help!

[Baffers100]

My parents are late seventies and have no will. Whenever I bring this up, my Dad becomes ridiculously defensive and nasty and claims everyone is just after his money. In reality, nobody really wants to sort a complicated estate out when they leave us, and make decisions for them.

They're very much average in terms of income and wealth etc. There's not a country estate and millions to quibble over. The complication is the kids.

My dad was once married and had two children. They're now in their fourties (mid/late). They stopped having a relationship with my dad at 18 (their choice). He paid child support for them and saw them regularly before the age of 18. To this date, my dad has no relationship with his daughter. His son pops on the scene on occasion to ask for money. "You are my dad afterall" type commentary,

My mum was also once married before meeting my dad. She too has a son and daughter who she also shared custody with with her ex husband- same arrangement as dad and ex-wife. Mums two kids are very much on the scene and we are all close and spend christmas, birthday, family bbqs etc together.

Mum and Dad were frisky buggers, eventually left their partners, met eachother and had me. I am the only biological child of both my mum and dad.

My mum doesn't want my dads kids getting anything in the event of their death. My dad hasn't expressed any wishes either way and would proably be happy leaving it all to dogs trust!

Legally, if something happens to them both and there is no will, what's the starting point?
Do all five of us "have a claim"
Do my dads kids have as much "entitlement" as the rest of us?
Do I have "more claim" because they're both my parents?

Please do not take this as money grabbing because it's not about that at all. I hope they will agree to get a will drawn up and save us all having to sort this post life, but I'd like to get an appreciation of legally where we all stand.

Thanks.

If they die doesn't any money go to the state??? Not entirely sure on that. A will would help clarify matters though.

You, and they, need legal advice. IANAL but I would presume that in the absence of a Will everything goes to the living spouse on the death of the first parent and then it is up to them what happens. If the second parent also has no Will then it will be divided between their next of Kin.

Hi OP, I understand your frustration - and no I don't think it's money grabbing - it's more about not being left with a mess to deal with after they are gone.

I'm in a sort of similar situation in that some of my siblings are no contact for years now. My mother hasn't made a will, she says she will but who knows, it may never happen.
If she doesn't when she dies said siblings will steamroll in and take over, and make things difficult and I have no comeback. It's not that I don't want them to get anything, it's just that I know they will make things hard for the sake of it, and this could be easily solved by making a bloody will which states quite clearly what they are entitled to.

Could you lean on your mother a bit, as she seems more amenable to it - she could persuade your dad to make one. Or at least get her to make one for herself.

I think it's incredibly selfish to not leave a will knowing there is a fucking mess left behind that your children will have to deal with.

Look up the Intestacy rules if you are in England and Wales which will give you a blueprint. Spouse gets the first £322,000(I think roughly) and half the rest. Remainder gets divided equally between the biological children of the deceased.

If the spouse then dies without a will, the same rules apply to everything he or she owns themselves and whatever they inherited from the first to die (if they do not remarry only the spouse's biological children inherit equally).

Only spouses and blood relations inherit under intestacy.

If your dad dies without a will then he is classed as intestate and the rules of intestacy apply.
Are your parents married?
If yes first 320k ISH goes to his wife and anything above that is split between all his biological children as far as I am aware

Which country do you live in ? The rules are different between England and Scotland.

I think that you’ll need a lawyer and it could depend on which parent passes first.

Depends on who dies first and england vs Scotland but I think on first death all goes to the spouse, if they are married. Are they?

It also depends on whether they are married to each other - I don't think you've said that in your OP (apologies if you did), but that will make a big difference.

If they have no wills, and assuming none of you is being supported by them and financially dependent then these are the rules.
https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will

The key questions are ;
How much money and property do they own.
Are the accounts and property owned jointly (aka Joint Tenants for houses) or separately (aka Tenants in Common for houses)?

Anything that's owned jointly goes straight to the other spouse on their death regardless of wills or intestacy laws.

If they died literally together, eg in a plane crash then the law assumes that the elder died first, just as a tie-break provision.

Scottish law is different to England wales on this

Not quite right. The first chunk goes to spouse and then the rest is split 50/50 between spouse and all his biological (or adopted) children.

Ah yes that's a good point re joint property held as joint tenants. The survivor will own 100% of a house if that applies. Then if they have no will.and don't remarry, their own children will inherit everything equally. That's the advantage of having a Will in a blended family. It means the children of one half don't potentially get disinherited unless intentionally.

It is called “dying intestate”. You can google it but basically (assuming you are in England or Wales):-

The living spouse will get 100% of all joint assets (so joint bank accounts and the house if (and only if!) they are joint tenants. These are joint assets so not part of the estate.

Then the living spouse gets the first £322k (check that number!) and half of the remainder. The other half is split between all children of the deceased.

When the second parent dies (assuming still no will) then it will be split between that spouse’s children.

So your mum needs to outlive your dad basically to cut out his other kids. (Or write a will herself!)

Where it gets interesting is if they both die in a car crash. If one lives long enough for the emergency services to arrive then they get everything. If they are both dead then it is assumed that the younger one died last. It is for this reason that wills generally say “if my spouse shall outlive me by at least 30 days….”

Edit: England & Wales

Doesn't actually sound complicated, rules of intestacy will apply, as posted above.

Remember, it is unlikely they both die "together" (and there are provisions around this as well), so there are going to be 2 estates - first with a portion going to the other spouse and second just to the offspring.

Understand the intestacy rules.
Explain to each of them the consequences and the ability for them, now, to make their own choices if they want to leave their estates otherwise.
Offer to assist them if they need help in making their wills.

Then, back off.
It won't make any real difference to the execution.

Married couples wills don't actually say that last bit any more, because it plays havoc with the inheritable IHT bands. I only just found out, and really ought to redo my own will to take it out.

Agreed.
But 30 day survivorship for everyone else.

No

Without a will you will get a share on both deaths. Your half siblings will each inherit on the death of their parent, so which ever parent dues top first it's their children that will lose out as they will only get the share from that parent whereas the surviving parent will inherit a share from their spouse and will then pass that on to their children inc you.

I suspect your dad doesn't want to disinherit his kids and doesn't want to have a row about it, that's why he's not doing it.

It sounds as if your DF would be fine with the status quo, where if he dies first then the children of his first marriage get (at a guess) almost nothing, and if he dies second then they get a third each of the marital assets. Doesn't seem very fair to me, but you shouldn't interfere.

Your mother OTOH doesn't sound as if she'd be happy with the status quo: if she died first then the children of her first marriage would be more or less disinherited. She should get legal advice.

Of course it doesn't. There would be an absolute outcry if people who didn't leave wills had their entire estates confiscated by the state. On the other hand, it might finally motivate people to take this seriously.

And write her own will.

Leaving her assets to her children.

She can leave a life interest in the house to your Dad so that he doesn’t have to sell.

She would need to endure the house was owned as tenants in common , though. And change it if they are joint tenants.

It seems harsh for your Dad’s sons to be disinherited.

^^ This is really important. The OP's Dad may be banking on dying first and therefore disinheriting the children of his first marriage without ever actually putting that in writing, but it could easily go the other way and it would be the children of OP's Mum's first marriage who lose out. There might be some mileage in pointing that out to her. It doesn't seem at all likely that the estranged pair would agree to a deed of variation so that the estate is split five ways, not three.

Also, it is absolutely essential to know if they are married or not. So much more complicated if they're not, as the surviving partner would not have an automatic right to inherit anything that wasn't in joint names. There might be ways for the partner to get something, but it wouldn't be straightforward or quick.

Also, if there's any chance that inheritance tax might be payable, it's a huge advantage to be married. Tax would basically only be payable after both partners' allowances have been taken off, and it's very rare indeed for anything to be left at that point.

[Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and probably very few posters here are lawyers. OP shouldn't rely on anything any of us say. Real legal advice is needed!]

Just let's say Mum departs first. Everything goes to Dad.
Dad passes intestate so everything goes to his 3 children, split equally.

Your Dad can put what he wants in his Will but if he dies first, and he leaves everything to your Mum, she gets to decide who gets the money when she goes ... or it goes to her 3 kids if no will.

The children of the spouse who dies first will probably miss out as (if the estate is modest) it, as well as any joint property will go to the other spouse. The children (of the deceased spouse only) only inherit anything at that point if there's more than 325k in non joint assets.

If the surviving spouse still doesn't make a will and doesn't remarry then their estate is split between their children in equal shares. Any non shared children of the first spouse get nothing.

So yes if they want to ensure they don't disinherit the kids from their first marriages they need wills, but you can't make them do it.

From an inheritance perspective you're in the best position as the child of both spouses, but I know that wasn't what you asked.

There was a man outside Tesco a few years ago promoting wills week and I stopped for a chat. (I'm a solicitor so already have a will!) He said most of the people he'd spoken to didn't have a will. When he asked why the most common answer was "it makes me think I might die". Well, duh, yes!

Actually - are your parents married to each other? You don't actually say. This could change the position somewhat!