Power of attorney while parents are well?

[Neenaw20]

Hi

I’d appreciate some advice. My parents are getting order. Neither are in good health. My mum has Leukaemia and has various other ailments including diabetes, high blood pressure etc. My dad has frontal lobe damage, is more or less deaf and has reduced mobility.

My mums speech has deteriorated significantly recently. She is at times unable to string a sentence together, slurs her words and has lost confidence (not helped by the corona lockdown and isolation). I have been living with my parents for the last 10 months whilst my house has been renovated and have seen a definite change in her behaviour (as has my dad) and we are both worried for her. Her memory and metal capacity appears generally ok. Not great but ok.

I have asked my mum to see a doctor to see if she can get some help for her speech but she has until now refused to acknowledge there is a problem. My dad has also spoken with her. We are now at a stage where she has agreed to see the doctor next week and she is looking into a Power of Attorney. Something I believe is sensible to put in place whilst both parents are well, it wont take away from their ability to look after their affairs at this time but it means I (and my siblings) can help them when required and it can be enforced should anything change in the future which affects mental capacity.

I think it’s the right thing to do and have been advised by many friends and family to put this in place based on their experiences.

My sister is however hesitant about it and feels it’s overkill. She thinks if we just write a note to the institutions that mum needs to speak to (like banks) that this should be adequate.

I am quite frustrated by this. My sister very rarely sees my mum (3-4 times a year) and when she pops by it’s briefly and my mum is on best behaviour. I feel she has no real understanding of the level of support both my parents need (even now). I am also fearful that should anything happen with my parents health then I will be left to puzzle my way through the minefield of legal and financial challenges associated with a lack of power of attorney. I wouldn’t be able to spend the time doing this. I live by myself, I have a full time job which is very demanding and I have my own mortgage and financial commitments which I can’t walk away from.

I suppose I am asking, am I doing the right thing by asking my parents to think proactively about the POA? Or is this overstepping the mark? As said previously, as I understand it, it Is something you should do while you are well in preparation for when you aren’t well. I want to make sure I am in the best position to help my parents. I love them very much.

Your sister is entirely wrong. You need PofA and should do it soon.

My OH and I signed PofAs to each other when we were quite young - we both worked in the health service and had seen how important it could b). My OH died in February - he had PD and was very paranoid and had no idea about sorting finances and care out. It was tragic to see a highly educated and intelligent man become a shell - and neither of us envisaged such a thing happening when we signed the PofAs. But I was so glad that we did. I was able to completely take over the finances and pay for the care he needed. And to make some very difficult decisions about his care; and at in the end, about how his death should be managed.

Do it now!

@june2007

My parents named who would have POA should they need it. They don,t at the mo but things are in place should they need it.

Have the forms been completed and registered with the OPG? If not then actually nothing is in place.

I didn't have the POAs, though the financial one would enable you to take control of the bank accounts.

However, if you simply did the internet banking because you had the password, that could raise questions if you continued to do so after DPs were unable to take their own decisions. Whereas if you are named on the account you actually own it and are of course entitled to carry on using it. But you need to agree with your sister who will take control under the POA because if you are a joint owner of the bank account but your sister has the POA, it effectively becomes joint between the two of you. Which may be OK, but it may be a source of conflict.

I controlled my DMs account from over 2500 miles away, to monitor her pensions coming in and paying for her nursing home and all utilities on her house, also all online.

Whilst you may be watching a gradual slide towards dementia, remember that loss of capacity can happen in a flash if one of them has a stroke, which is what happened to my DM.

Actually I carried on with the joint bank account for quite a long time, but in the end the money ran out and I needed to access some savings that were not jointly held.

Then, with no POA, I needed to use a solicitor (about £1000) to go to the family court (about £400) to request the Office of the Public Guardian to grant a Deputyship. I had to pay for an insurance policy (£500) and submit regular reports to the OPG of what I had been paying etc. It all took at least 4 months to put in place. Trust me, getting the POA is much cheaper and easier than this way.

I actually used the same joint account after my DM died and turned it into the executors account, then just took it over completely when the estate was finished and still have it.

Dreadful time here when parents refused POA.
DM (84( was under section in a MH unit when my DF had a catastrophic accident in the house and died.
SW therefore were making all decisions on her behalf until we applied via the courts for guardianship. It took six months and several thousand pounds. All the while DM was detained in a MH wing of a community hospital 50 miles away as her address had to remain constant while the legal papers were in the court system.
Only once we secured guardianship could she be moved to a care home near us.
Over a dozen people locally have got their POA in place after seeing my parents’ situation play out. Nightmare.

I have it for my perfectly healthy parents - both of whom have looked after ill elderly parents and want things to be easier for the next generation when they are the old ones. I hope your sister can be persuaded and I wish you well.

My sister is however hesitant about it and feels it’s overkill. She thinks if we just write a note to the institutions that mum needs to speak to (like banks) that this should be adequate

Your sister is wrong.

Get POA in place whilst your parents can agree to it (and any specific wishes they want included). Having PoA in place in advance of the restrictions on visiting hospitals imposed by COVID was a life saver when a seriously ill elderly relative was about to be booted out of hospital into an empty house with no support.

After days of trying to get the consultant supposedly "leading care" to update me I found the magic words "I'm her legal PoA call me" resulted in a call from the consultant within 15 minutes. Interestingly the first sentance they uttered was to check the PoA was active and that they had to talk to me

if we just write a note to the institutions that mum needs to speak to (like banks) that this should be adequate

It won't be remotely adequate - the bank won't allow it.

Do your parents have wills?

We used this company, run by a former (possibly current) MN-er who did POA and wills really cheaply
www.marlowwills.co.uk/

Your sister is daft. Their poa should have been done years ago. I'm an only child, and my parents revised their will when I was 21 to give me poa and any other authority I would need. I'm 47 now and they still have wonderful health, so hopefully won't be needed for many years to come.

The time to designate poa is before your health takes a turn.

You are right, your sister is woefully ignorant.

it Is something you should do while you are well in preparation for when you aren’t well.

This is correct. DH had POA for his DM, who was coping fine despite diabetes into her 90s... until quite abruptly she wasn't. It was hard enough anyway but would have been a bloody nightmare without the POA.

DH and I are approaching 60 and have already sorted out POA for each other with our (young adult) DD as reserve. There's no benefit whatever in delaying getting the paperwork in order if it's clear who should do it.

Watching with interest. My DM is flatly refusing to consider POA even though I already manage all her admin. Roughly how much should I start saving now to manage GPO and how long does the process take?

@SinisterBumFacedCat

I would try my hardest to get through to your mum. Perhaps showing her some articles about POA and the consequences for you if she doesn't have one will wake her up.

There's quite a lot of info here, Sinister

www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/legal-issues/power-of-attorney/

I can only speak for myself, but I take enormous comfort in the fact that my parents have taken the steps early on to ensure I am able to take over should tragedy/serious illness strike. With all of their various financial interests, I can only imagine the nightmare I would have to contend with if they hadn't already sorted everything.

Yes yes yes get POA for both finances and health.

My MIL has Alzheimer’s, good thinking FIL planned ahead and POA put in place for finances for both himself and DH. Quiet unexpectedly we lost FIL who had been her carer and suddenly the POA became very useful/important indeed, not long after we figured out we would need one for health too so we got that sorted.

There were so many things that we could not have done had the POA not been in place. Most importantly of which, we decided that with MIL having lost FIL it would be far too traumatic for her to be then moved out if the house she’d lived in for 40 years and to be put into a care home. Instead of moving her home we moved in with her so everything stayed the same as much as possible for her, (which with Alzheimer’s is important) and continue her care. The home soon became unsuitable for MIL’s needs (we still didn’t want to put her in a care home) so we put her house up for sale and looked for one in which would meet all her needs and that we could continue to care for her in. None of this would have been possible without the POA in place, because it was in place we managed to care for her at home until she passed away, and she passed away surround by familiar things loved ones/family. Given the recent and ongoing pandemic I can’t even imagine to contemplate how we would have felt had she been in a care home and unable to see her family, and for us to her.

Health is important too, because under circumstances where the person with reduced mental capacity though accident/illness or injury can no longer make their own medical and care decisions, those decisions will be made for them by an adult social care worker. You may not agree, knowing you parent/loved one well you may know that they wouldn’t want a certain medical treatment or a certain level/type of care. Without this POA for health you can be powerless to made decisions in line with what you know your loved one would want. This can be particularly important for certain types of ongoing care and for end of life care.

So whether you anticipate needing or not, get it done and in place. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

Oh and FYI, your siblings do not have to agree, only your parents. You parents can also decide who to nominate and their can be joint nominees too. In cases where it is joint those who are nominated both have to agree on the course of action etc. A good solicitor will be able to explain it all to you.

The POA for health does not need a solicitor in order to be obtained, you can do that yourselves with little fuss. There is a fee but it’s not much.

Threading this thread, I find myself wondering why your DSis thinks a 'note to the bank' is preferable to using the POA which is designed for the purpose.

Indeed a ‘note to the bank’ will be rejected out of hand. I had to register the poa with my ma’s bank during a short appointment where I took the original poa and identification and signed a bank form etc. Short appointment. All sorted in case of need. And with no delay having to register myself as her poa with the bank when/if the time came to use it.
A ‘Note to the bank’ when there is a proper well known well sused required procedure would just look odd and frankly on the face of it potentially dodgy. (As well as being disregarded out of hand).

Don’t listen to your sister.
Get the ball rolling ASAP. My DH’s parents have just updated their wills and done the POA. Even though they are still fit and healthy for 80yr+ olds. It took a few months for everything to go through during this pandemic and my MIL was constantly stressing about them catching Covid before all the paperwork was finalised.

I really don’t understand why your sister is so blasé about it all.

Doing the PofAs yourself is very possible - I did ours myself. You just need to be systematic about it as the forms need signing in the right date order. I drew a flow diagram and it worked well.

You can also apply for a reduction on the fee for registering - the financial conditions for a reduction are very generous. We were both working when we did them but still got a substantial reduction.

I used to work as a SW in hospitals with elderly and disabled people and used to heave a huge sigh of a relief when there was a relative with a PofA as finding the best care for the person could proceed quickly and efficiently.

The PofA for decisions about health and welfare is also very important. I was PofA for my OH with our AC also named. When it came to deciding about heroic invasive interventions or a peaceful death I was able to work together with my AC to help the right and merciful decisions to be made for him.

Does anyone have any ideas on how I can persuade my father to give me POA? He's in his 70's, I am already concerned about his memory, plus he has his 16 year old grandson living with him, so it's even more important to sort it out. But he refuses, and either ignores any attempt to talk, or says that he will know when his memory is going, and will do it then. I've tried to tell him it's too late then, but he doesn't care. Doesn't even care that it will make things harder for me. So frustrating

lovemysitiation that is tough. I had both sides - dad with some dementia and refusing to update a decades old will which didn’t even mention his second wife. Mum who wanted everything shipshape when still compis mentis.
Would it help for him to see you (and your dp/dh/dw whatever or just you) doing it ? I honestly think everyone should do it at as early
An age as makes sense partic in these Covid days. Might make him feel less ‘targeted’.
Has he done a will which protects 16 year old ? Or is that another step too far ? He might not realise that poa can only be used or kick in when there is medical agreement that they have lost capacity to make those decisions themselves so as long as he is hale and hearty it isnt relevant.

Once you need one its too late to get one.
If you have one and never need to use it them thats fine but if you need one and havent got one you are screwed.
My Dm and sdad got them 2 years ago and while they are both still fine I am not sure sdad would get one now.
Look for Mumblechum on here or Marlow Wills, shes fab and sorted them out for us remotely

My parents were proactive about this and it is such a comfort. I’ve even been brought in to set up signature cards at their bank and to meet their financial advisor and attorney. That was a bit of overkill, but all it cost me was a couple of hours. My mother has passed, so now it is even more important that my dad has everything organized in case I need to step in to help him.

LoveMySituation Ask around your neighbours, friends and very soon you’ll hear some really sad tales of parents who didn’t apply in time and families who were left in financial frustration waiting for guardianship to come through . Then just give him the facts of how it can go pear shaped naming names and instances. Only after my DM was sectioned when my DF took ill and my DF was lying immobile in another hospital did the penny drop that we needed it. Three days after leaving hospital he fell changing the smoke alarm in the upstairs landing . He died three days after that but it was too late. At least six sets of people I know arranged it when they saw how expensive and needless our task became through cussed avoidance ...

He's been talking about updating his will recently Heron, so knowing him, probably be in about five years time It's just me, I'm in my 40's and hadn't thought of doing it myself, though I don't think it would make any difference. He wouldn't see a connection. And he's used to his word being the last word