Behaviour of elderly Dad

[paulfoel]

My elderly Dad is a complete nightmare anddoes a good job of annoying me a lot of the time! I shouldn't let it get to me and should be more firm with him. But I was thinking about what does wind me up and wonder whether you all think my approach is right with what I expect etc from elderly person.

1. If you can do it yourself or help yourself then do it. Don't expect others to help because you can't be bothered.

1. Help others to help you and be a little bit flexible. Don't be stubborn and want things all your own way especially when others are sorting things out to make everyones life easier.

1. Appreciate that family have other responsibilities and not just you. You don't have a right to unlimited time.

Sadly, my Dad fails badly on all three of these.....

If he can get someone to do something for him he just won't bother himself (in fact, I think he likes having someone run around for him). He is totally inflexible and won't listen to anyone its his way or not at all - in the past hes expected me to travel 2 hours to pick him up to take him to appointment rather than pay for a £10 taxi. Worse of all - he does not care about what I've got on, issues/responsibilities I have for my own family - and has said he expects to be put first.

Am I being unfair on him?

/rant over

Well at the time I tried to do what was best for him. Every time he digs his heels in and is awkward.

Couldn't get in the bath - I sorted him a grant but he had to pay £200 (hes got about £40K in the bank). Refused at first. Didn't shower or bath for 2-3 months. Took months to talk him around.

Stair lift. He lives in flat, stairs to living room then stairs to bedroom. Again refused to pay the £200. Struggled to get up stairs to bathroom so got pee bottle from hospital, used that, then tipped down kitchen sink. Ewww. Then he'd crawl on hands and knees up stairs. Gave in months later again.

Would I do things differently? I have toughened up now. I still let it get to me and should ignore him. In the past, I have let him dictate and he has caused real hassle for me and my family.

Xmas I wish I'd stopped inviting him xmas day years ago. He was a nightmare and ruined xmas a few times. Now we dont invite him and I don't feel guilty.

Apart from that, I've tried and tried what I can. With hindsight, again, I should remember that and do what I do sometimes now. Offer to help where I can, if he digs his heels in, starts being awkward and unreasonable, then just say "stuff you then". Realise I can only do so much and I can't force him - even at 84 hes got to find out the hard way.

potato - fair enough thanks for clarifying....

I guess mostly we feel that there should be give and take, if we help someone they will make some concession to us or they will help themselves as well

But it seems in this case any help you give they just immediately grab for more, any help you give turns into a rod for your own back

What I’ve learned on this journey is whatever you do, it’s not enough. Set your boundaries, from what I’ve read he has capacity so if he refuses an on-line shop, to get a washing machine, carers etc then it’s not your (or your brother’s) problem. Don’t do more than you are able and willing to do, there may come a time when you need to step up and if you won’t have any reserve in your ‘tank’.
Get adult social services to do an assessment and he may well qualify for attendance allowance (get Age UK to help fill in the forms),
Guilt is inevitable, but remember you have responsibilities to your wife and children and to yourself. Put your oxygen mask on and develop Teflon shoulders.

All I can say I sympathise and it's hell.

Honestly he takes the biscuit sometimes. It defies belief how selfish he is sometimes and I get dragged into it. All I need with the hassle with my own family at the moment (see my thread about son).

Bought him a mobility scooter a few months ago. He used it for a bit then decided it was too hard to use, then only used when someone was with him. It became obvious that he just could not be bothered which is him to a T.

He had an optician appointment yesterday. 1/2 mile from home in local town. He must have hinted 10 times for me to take him. I said no take the scooter. Made up every excuse under the sun "they wont let me in the shop", "they dont have the facilities". Won't listen of course they do.

So I get a text from his cousin yesterday (whos 3 years younger than him only!). Can I take next time because he can't manage next time? Dad had cajoled him into pushing him around, in a manual wheelchair, to the optician then to the doctors and home over a mile and up a steep hill.

Disgusted with my Dads selfish behaviour. I know exactly how hes thinking - why bother to think about taking my scooter when I can sit there and let someone else do it all for me. Totally and utterly selfish.

I wish his cousin had said no of course because I've dragged into it now. I've seen this probably 15-20 times over the years where Dad has taken advantage of people like this.

All I could think yesterday was "You selfish old man"

I hope you told your cousin that he was duped into helping!!!

Yes Dad does it all the time though. He plays on peoples good nature to help him out then takes advantage. He comes across as a sweet old man who can't cope but in reality he plays a very good game.

I've had years of it. His (older) sister was the worse. Did things for him for years then got too old and dropped it all. Thats the trouble, people do things for him, he takes the mick, they drop him and he expects someone else to step in. His motto seems to be "why make an ounce of effort yourself when you can get some mug to do it for you".

I know full well hes thought hmm take scooter which means I'll have to think a little bit and get on with it, or let someone push me and I can switch off. No contest for his thinking.

I can't tell you the number of times hes said to me "x has said he can't do that anymore" or "dunno where y is but they're not going to church anyway and can't give me a lift". I know full well that hes lured them in, taken advantage and now they've had enough of it.

I'm sure hes a narcicisst. Its all about him. Hes always the most important and no-one else matters.

He sounds incredibly selfish and incapable of showing proper gratitude for all the help people have given him.

Have you told him that he should be following your guidelines if he expects help? They are quite reasonable.

He is managing to take control and dictate his preferred choice, not what he actually needs. You need to stop accepting that you must go along with this.

For shopping, 'no, I'm not taking you. If you want it delivered, I can order it or would you like to do that?'

For appointments, 'no, I'm not taking you. Are you able to order a taxi or shall I order it for you?'

You can give him a choice of two things that are reasonable for you.

If he doesn't like those, he can say no.

Don't give any reasons why you can't do it the way he wants- just say no. If you give reasons he will just try to show they are unreasonable. You may need time with your daughter, but that isn't a good excuse for him because he doesn't care if you never see her. You may be exhausted but he doesn't really care about that unless it affects him.

If he was a reasonable person, he would be worrying about the impact he is having on your wife and child, instead of blaming them for distracting you from being totally at his beck and call.

when you bought the mobility scooter for him, was it a joint decision?
Had he asked for one and thought about how he might use it?

Because one thing that strikes me is he could lack confidence to use it. I am an able and capable driver, yet I am sure that at 84 I'd feel pretty wary of being on a scooter.

Have you thought he is simply afraid rather than being awkward?

You said he is in good health for his age- so why does he need a mobility scooter?

I'd have thought someone of 84 in good health could easily walk half a mile.

I'm sorry but you are coming over as a bit unsympathetic- he sounds fearful, not awkward.

Mobility scooters are hard to control. My dad declined to have one in his early 90s because he knew he'd not be able to react and control it.

It sounds as if you need to pre-empt these events by planning ahead.
If he has an appt, it needs discussing in advance- will he book a taxi, will he walk, does he need family help? You need to discuss these things with him, so he's not scrabbling around last minute for a lift or whatever.

I'm sorry but you come over as harsh. All the adaptation like stair lifts at his home take time for an old person to adjust to. As do things like showers.
Maybe he is terrified he will fall, or have an accident.

If you could give some time to helping him become confident, he may not need rely on you so much again.

Wooly - spot on. He has pretty much demonstrated he cares little about anyone elses wellbeing. I could tell you some stories about how hes done things in the past.

I think that's the crux of it. Of course I will help him where I can. I have never refused to do that. But he is stubborn and he wants me to help him and do it his way. Quite often there is a much easier way but his attitude is no I want it done this way.

Hospital appointments was a classic. I sorted out patient transport. The he moaned he didn't like it because it came 30 mins before he wanted to go (it picked a few people up). I said OK I'll get a taxi (he could afford 1000 taxis no problem) no I don't want to get a taxi. What he NEEDED was to get to hospital appointment, what he WANTED was for me to travel two hours from work to take him.

I said no but as always happens he coerced someone else to take him.

Jingling - with respect I can assure you hes not fearful but awkward. Hes been like it for years. He will not listen to anyone inc doctors, hospitals, social services. Its his way or no way and he expects everyone to do it the way he wants.

His argument with the health profession is strange indeed. They advise him to take x dose of painkillers. He has decided thats too high a dose and there "must be another tablet". So he keeps going back to the GP to tell them this. They've now refused to see him about it because he wants a solution that he wants and none exists.

Scooter was a joint decision. Easier than normal. In the past, he refused to have a stair lift (didnt want to pay the £200 he had to contribute after I sorted out a disabled facilies grant). Decide he'd pee in the teacups and tip down the kitchen sink and then crawl up the stairs on his hands and knees to go to bed.

Same with the adapted shower. Didn't want to pay. Fell trying to get in and out of the bath a few times. Then gave up and just didnt bother washing for months and months.

Gave in eventually but it was a huge fight....

I will do anything for my Dad but I can't give up my own family because he wants things his way exactly.

The appt issue has been ongoing for weeks. I've offered to:-

1. Pop up night before get scooter ready. NO not sure if I want to.
2. Sort out a taxi. NO waste of money.
3. Change his appt to another day when brother has day off. NO Want to go that day.
4. See if I can sort out a home visit. NO I dont want a different optician.
5. I take time off work and drive him down there. YES!!!!!!

Hopefully, you can see why I refuse to go down this route....

Don't you need some set 'rules' about all of this?
In advance of the actual appts?

My mum will not have NHS transport for the same reasons- a 20 min journey can take 1.5 hrs all round the houses, so it's a no-no.
If your dad feels the same way, you need discount it altogether.

That leaves a taxi or a lift from family or his friends.

If you book him a taxi and he doesn't want it on the day, you are entitled to refuse to take time off work or whatever.

I think your use of language is very emotive- you say he 'moaned' about hospital transport. Maybe he had good reason? Elderly people, often men with enlarged prostates, can't wait for an hour for a wee if the bus is going all round the houses.

There are probably good reasons why he doesn't want a long journey.
There may be a reason why he is wary of taxis- I don't know. But you seem to look on his behaviour as beligerance, rather than trying to imagine there may be a reason behind it.

It sounds as if there is no joined up thinking behind his care.
Can you not talk to his friends and agree what happens with lifts?

The way my mum works this all is
a) she will take a taxi
b) if possible my sibling (who lives nearby) will offer if they can leave work for a while or do flexi hours
c) if she books a taxi but her friends hear about it, they often offer to take her instead.

Can you contact your dad's friends and tell them that you / he has booked a taxi and they don't need bother unless he's really ill and can't cope with a taxi ride?

Given these are regular outings, it ought to be possible to plan ahead.

x-d posts.

yes I can see and I can see your frustration.

I think you need to tell him - once again- when it's a calm time and not the day of the appt or the day before- that you cannot take him to appt. Full stop, End of.

You will book a taxi if he wants- or is he able to do that himself ? (No hearing issues etc on phone?)

You- and him- are giving him too many choices.

It's a taxi or NHS bus.

Then leave it. Don't listen to anything about changing times, home visits etc.

tell him that from now on, it will be one of 2 options- taxi or NHS transport. he can choose, there are no other options.

You need to treat him like a toddler. Give too many options and they play up.

Give 2 options, consistently, and they get the message.

Tried to set rules and boundaries. It works to a certain extent.

Still does not stop him constantly trying it on....

I know I come across as annoyed with him. He sucks the life out of me. I try to help and it gets nowhere. And he has little regard for my or my families wellbeing.

Don't worry if he coerces someone else to do it.

You don't need to feel guilty or worry about that. Let him get on with it. You have offered a suitable alternative.

If he thinks saving himself the price of a taxi is more important than you being at work or with your family, or doing other things you need to do, just tell him it is not more important for you.

Or start charging him - my parents insisted on paying petrol when I took them anywhere. I didn't want it, but if I didn't take it, they would prefer to take a taxi.

He will probably think it is not worth it if he has to pay you anything.

Jingling

if you read the whole thread you will see you are way off the mark.

Found out some more info. Had a chat last night with his cousin (I call him my uncle). He told me that he'd tried to tell Dad that he might not be able to push him, actually went half way and tried to tell Dad he was struggling but Dad insisted.

Yes he should have said NO so its partly his fault. BUT, I'm so ashamed of my Dad for the way hes treating people at the moment. All of this to save probably £10 in taxi fares.

He does sound very difficult.
But can you, cousin and the rest of his family and friends have a family conference and decide on the best way forward?
It needs everyone to agree together on a plan.

If his appts are not emergencies so you all know the dates, can you agree on transport, well in advance?

You all need to tell him what is happening, not be at his beck and call and whims on the day- that's not fair on anyone.

Is he getting Attendance Allowance? if so, that should pay for taxis.
I know when my mum got it for my dad, it took all of the worry about costs away because it paid for things like taxis to appts.

If he is not getting AA someone needs to apply for it for him- Age UK will do that.

I know it's very frustrating. What we found with my dad was the more his physical ability declined, the more stubborn he was about other things, because that was his only way of having any control over his life.

Also remember that he may be suffering from early dementia or decline in cognitive function which will skew his reasoning ability and judgement of what is fair and acceptable.

As a family, you need to create some red lines, boundaries and tell him in advance what people are willing to do.

I think I remember you posting about your dad on Moneysavingexpert a few years ago and if it was you then I understand completely why you are so frustrated with him. If it wasn't you then I apologise. But, assuming it's the same, then I know it's been going on for years and he's been very unreasonable to you and your family over the years andthat you've tried most of the suggestions others have posted. I've no suggestions, just wanted you to know that I understand where you're at.

The family conference thing never worked. Everyone had different views....

He gets DLA and has got about £50K stashed away "just in case". What for I don't know. He just won't spend any money and likes to save. Long story but Dad is as tight as they come.

Tried the dementia thing. Spoke to his GP. Nope not in their opinion.

Paul, has your brother's girlfriend backed off completely after the whole carer's allowance fiasco?

Im in the office at the moment. Its 730pm uk time. Been here since 8am. Problems. I'll be in sat am. Im on call this weekend. BUT come hell or high water I will have to visit him on sunday because I said I would. Even if I've had no sleep all weekend and been working 24 hours.

No you don't. You don't have to visit him. He may be upset and give off about it if you don't. But you don't have to.

You may not be able to change him and his behaviour. But you can change yours.

And on your original question - he is clearly being completely unreasonable. Some people are like that all their lives. Some people definitely get more inflexible, ego centric and demanding as they get older. It can be personality, illness or simply forgetting what life is like for other people (or not caring). But it isn't a given and it isn't something you have to pander to.

The family conference thing never worked. Everyone had different views....

Try it again?

Just because you tried once doesn't mean you can't re-visit it.

Otherwise, you have to come up with a plan to suit you.

ie

I cannot take you to appts on a working day (or whatever.) [So you will need to book a taxi.]
Cousin cannot push you in a wheelchair, so don't ask.
I cannot take you when I have had to work overtime
I can come and see you at a weekend either on Sat or Sunday to be confirmed according to my work and family commitments.

Yes the carers idea seems to have disappeared once SIL realised there wasn't any money it.

Otherwise she could have taken him!