Headteachers have voted to boycott SATS....

[deaddei]

but in RL what will that mean?
Will some schools not do them?

Thank you, ariesgirl and pixie, for explaining so clearly!

To Beenbeta - your lack of understanding in this curriculum area means that it's nigh on impossible to discuss with you your ideas on how to assess it. I'm sorry, but they're a nonsense.

As others have pointed out, creative writing is a small part of the writing knowledge a child develops at primary school. A child can forget 'getting a decent job' is they can't actually write an letter of application in the first place.

if

A child of 8 does not write letters of application. In fact, if you had applied for a job lately you would know most job applications are now online. Most DCs communicate by text, facebook, email, interact with the WWW in a myriad of ways. Job interviws often involve online psychometric tests, testing basic skills. Most professional exams now require volumes of knowledge to be demonstrated by multi choice exam.

Lets get even more basic here. The average child on a deprived estate with parents of low educational achievement is going to be far better served by being able to properly read, spell, punctuate and do maths than learning how to write creatively. Earning a high score in multi choice 11+ demonstrating basic knowledge and perhaps an online CAT intelligence/logic test could get them to Grammar school and then on to university.

This thread has give me massive insights into where the UK state education system went wrong. I know education is more than just learning the basics. That is why I chose to send DSs to a private school - but without the basics they cannot hope to do anything more complex. Many children cannot do the basics. We need to focus priorities here.

Children have to come out of Primary school proficient in the basics otherwise they canot progress at secondary school.

In regards to the multiple test system you suggest - this could happen - however teachers would still end up teaching to the test. Apart from marking inconsistencies all the same problems with the current SATS would still be there. The system you have suggested would also cost just as much as external moderation (which you suggested would be too costly). As you mentioned these tests are already available on the internet -they are not a new idea - but have been deemed insufficient to judge students ability over a range of topics and skills.

I fully agree that students need to be assessed - but I cannot agree that a one dimensional model such as multiple choice exam system is going to be to the benfit of the child.

However you are entitled to your opinion, it is a shame that you have not had a more positive experience of the state school system as there are many wonderful schools across the UK. However I do agree that significant improvements need to be made - particularly in literacy. I think many teachers feel that currently so much time is spent preparing for tests (which are used to judge the school and teacher, rather than to the benfit of the child) which could be put to much better use.

I think this thread has highlighted that decisions on future assessment should be discussed by all stakehlders, inc parents - who I agree often feel left out of the decision making process in regards to major changes to the education system.

Sorry previous message was in response to BeenBeta

"A child of 8 does not write letters of application. In fact, if you had applied for a job lately you would know most job applications are now online."

The skills required to handwrite a letter and write an online application are largely the same (except for handwriting skills, which you still seem to be confusing for writing skills). They require a knowledge of punctuation, sentence structure, vocabulary, organisation, etc - all impossible to test thoroughly by multiple choice and online.

"Children have to come out of Primary school proficient in the basics otherwise they canot progress at secondary school. "

Agreed. But what do you call 'the basics'? Because being able to write at any sort of basic level (I am thinking the expected level required by 7 year olds, for example) still cannot be tested through multiple choice.

By BeenBeta Mon 19-Apr-10 22:27:36
Well, for example, if a child like DS1 got 85% on his maths multi-choice test but got nearly all the algebra questions wrong that would tell me a lot. I hope it would also tell his teacher a lot.

because a multi- choice test only tells you the child selected the correct answer not how they chose the answer whether because they "knew" or because they "guessed"

An illuminating article for those people, like Beenbeta, who are convinced that thousands of children leaving state primary schools unable to read, write or add up.

I am so sorry but how anyone can say that a child does not benefit by learning how to string a narrative together really does need to look in the playground.

Much of the syntax and grammer that a child learns through exercises in school will just be forgotten unless they are able to apply this to a piece of text. It also helps the child to develop reasoning skills through having to construct a coherent story. It is vital to those children who need to learn by doing ('kinaesthetic learning' can occur in many guises).

Moreover verbal reasoning scores have the closest correlation to final outcome for students so why put them at a disadvantage? Why do you think there are so many verbal reasoning tests in school entrance exams? You can drill your child on the linguistic level stuff but Narrative/make believe is part of childhood and will achieve the same ends in a much nicer, more successful and more meaningful way.

I need to look at the preview don't I?!!

I meant 'I am so sorry but anyone who can say that a child does not benefit by learning how to string a narrative together ...'

There was also a stray capital N in there too.

Sorry.

I am NOT arguing children should not do creative writing in class. That is just part of good teaching practice - aimed at improving VR skills as you rigtly point out.

What I am arguing is test the outcome of that good teaching by giving them multi choice VR test like they have in 11+ exams.

Teachers seem to be getting mixed up between the process of teaching and learning outcomes. I do not want to test or oversee what is happening in the classroom. I want to test the outcome only.

By BeenBeta Tue 20-Apr-10 15:36:31

Lets get even more basic here. The average child on a deprived estate with parents of low educational achievement is going to be far better served by being able to properly read, spell, punctuate and do maths than learning how to write creatively. Earning a high score in multi choice 11+ demonstrating basic knowledge and perhaps an online CAT intelligence/logic test could get them to Grammar school and then on to university.

I disagree earning a high score on multi-choice demonstrates that a child can read, spell, punctuate and do maths. It proves nothing more than they are capable of making lucky guesses

Multi choice questions can of course be guessed. However, after doing 100 questions with 5 choices only 20% correct answers can on average be due to guess work. The chances of, say, getting all 10 algebra questions right by guess work is incredibly small.

Tesing outcomes is about seeing whether a child has absorbed knowledge nd undestanding. Not whether the teacher used the 'correct teaching method' in the classroom. The teacher can teach standing on he head using Kenyan click language for all I care - what comes out and (whether the child was happy) is all I care about.

See my above previous comment on 'guessing' in multi choice tests.

BB I am not setting myself against you, I can see that you are really engaged with your children's education and I applaud that - it would be a better world if more parents were as interested as you.

I'm not saying that you are denigrating CW but now I am saying you need to look at the real 11+ tests. I do - all the time. What will make the difference to any child's application is going to be that 25 point CW question BECAUSE it is an accurate reflection of their ability at the time. Better than any of the other areas because it requires children to pull all the strands together. Apart from a very few schools, that is why the schools put it in - its the tiebreaker. Even if this were not so - which it is - the schools habitually use this as a measure.
Also as one head once said to me, 'It doesn't matter what they know if they can't express or explain it.' He was right, think about it - you know he was right. I think that this applies even more to the children from the challenging schools and challenged homes. That is the skill they really need. Why concentrate entirely on the trees when you have to navigate the wood?

Whooaahh, cliche central there - sorry but it does express my meaning.

And see the above article on your perceived notion of the 'disgraceful' standard of state education.

OMG I spelt grammar with an e. I am so usless tonight I think I'll go and cook dinner.

useless

Oh BeenBeta.

Eventually everyone who is arguing with you will leave the thread, and you will think you've won the argument. In fact, everyone will have lost the will to 'discuss' the issue with you any further. Ironically, persuasive writing is not your forte. You simply ignore the points you have no answer for. It's no surprise you see little value in writing- you simply never learned the skills yourself. If you did, they are long forgotten.

"The average child on a deprived estate with parents of low educational achievement is going to be far better served by being able to properly read, spell, punctuate and do maths than learning how to write creatively. Earning a high score in multi choice 11+ demonstrating basic knowledge and perhaps an online CAT intelligence/logic test could get them to Grammar school and then on to university."

This paragraph speaks volumes. Leaving aside the laughable notion that you are party to any information about 'the average child on a deprived estate' (although please correct me if you have data on this), you assume that their aspirations begin and end with functional skills.

Does it not occur to you that a child on a deprived estate may become a writer? A journalist?

Of course it doesn't.

Feel free to ignore this post- I'm sure you will.